KnightofChrist Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1889415' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:37 PM']I disagree. Is that an attack? My reaons are that the people of that time followed blindly without understanding the esstentials of the faith. They followed without being able to explain what it is that the believed. Of course women were not objectified as they are today. They were considered subordinate. The poor of the day lived in a state of poverty. Who knows...you don't even know...were the people Catholic because they were afraid of being anything else? I do not think that this is an anti-Catholic sentiment. Instead this could be a truth. Under fear of torture or death they could have been Catholic. Why not have people come to the faith out of their own understanding and love of the faith. Wait.... did I attack you by that?[/quote] People who are anti-catholic use similar logic that accuses the Church in those times as being a bully, and sexist. She was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1889418' date='Jun 12 2009, 09:41 PM']People who are anti-catholic use similar logic that accuses the Church in those times as being a bully, and sexist. She was not.[/quote] Arguing must be easy when your answers are predetermined. It doesn't matter what evidence is presented does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1889418' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:41 PM']People who are anti-catholic use similar logic that accuses the Church in those times as being a bully, and sexist. She was not.[/quote] Is that the only thing you took from my post? What about the fact that the people did not have the knowledge of the faith as we do today? If I were living in the Middle Ages, you know full well that I would not have the understanding and knowledge of the faith as I do. Instead my only purpose would be to raise a family and tend to the farm. YOU brought up the objectification of women. Not I. I was debating that fact. Men and women alike were not given the opporunity of learning the faith as we do today. Was this totally the Church's fault. No of course not. It was also the times. The fact that people were not able to get the education as people are today. The fact that not everyone could read etc. I am not saying that the Church was a bully and sexist. But those things did occur and you cannot deny it. I am saying now, people who come to the faith do so in most cases under full knowledge that it is the true Church. Another fact that you cannot deny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Back to freedom of speech. It is important. Without freedom of speech, we could not speak out against the evils of the time. Sure we are quieted and beat down but we still are able to speak out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1889432' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:01 PM']Is that the only thing you took from my post? What about the fact that the people did not have the knowledge of the faith as we do today? If I were living in the Middle Ages, you know full well that I would not have the understanding and knowledge of the faith as I do. Instead my only purpose would be to raise a family and tend to the farm.[/quote] This assumes most girls would be dumb pregnant peasant girls, it also assumes that peasant girls where dumb. I object and refuse that I must know any such thing. The faithfuls knowledge of the faith may well have been stronger then. This age is no better in terms of evil than those ages, if anything this age is more evil and wicked. Which was my original point. [quote name='picchick' post='1889432' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:01 PM']YOU brought up the objectification of women. Not I. I was debating that fact. Men and women alike were not given the opporunity of learning the faith as we do today. Was this totally the Church's fault. No of course not. It was also the times. The fact that people were not able to get the education as people are today. The fact that not everyone could read etc.[/quote] It wasn't the Church fault at all. She does not sin. And no I do not doubt such things happened I simply in no way will blame Mother Church. But I agree let us get back on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888424' date='Jun 11 2009, 09:25 AM']The Dark Ages and Middle Ages were wonderful times. Those were the ages when Christendom was at its height.[/quote] They aren't dark to me!! The Dominicans were founded during this time!!! Viva Veritas!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1889448' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:36 PM']They aren't dark to me!! The Dominicans were founded during this time!!! Viva Veritas!!![/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Just because it makes me laugh and is somewhat relevant: [img]http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/darkages.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Kitty' post='1889469' date='Jun 13 2009, 12:33 AM']Just because it makes me laugh and is somewhat relevant: [img]http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/darkages.gif[/img][/quote] The imperium wasn't in great shape when Catholicism was made the religion of the Roman Empire under Theodosius. It's not like the Western Empire would have lasted any longer than it did if Christianity had not been made the religion of the State. I wonder who would have preserved Greco-Roman culture in the West if the Latin Church had not done so. Edited June 13, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Kitty' post='1889469' date='Jun 13 2009, 12:33 AM']Just because it makes me laugh and is somewhat relevant: [img]http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/darkages.gif[/img][/quote] To bad it's complete bull. The Scientific method was itself concieved during the Middle/Dark Ages. Edited June 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1889475' date='Jun 13 2009, 12:36 AM']To bad it's complete bull. The Scientific method was itself concieved during the Middle/Dark Ages.[/quote] Uh huh. Which scientific Method is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1889490' date='Jun 13 2009, 01:19 AM']Uh huh. Which scientific Method is that?[/quote] The scientific method of intimidation, threat and coercion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1889494' date='Jun 13 2009, 01:24 AM']The scientific method of intimidation, threat and coercion.[/quote] I agree that the middle ages should not be conflated with the dark ages, and important things were developed in the middle ages. However I assume he is going to mention something about Bacon or whatever, which is a problem for the "Christendom was really a great place" as it came from Spain, which at the time was not a part of Christendom. The real problem is that the history of science does not show a linear development of scientific progress and developments of method. The idea of a continuous scientific paradigm from the dark ages to the present is just fiction. Even if we reject Kuhn's very plausible thesis, major components of the scientific method, treating it like a linear development for a moment, like falsifiability, were not developed until the 20th century through Popper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 Moreover even if his claims regarding the scientific method were correct, and they are not, that would not disprove the claims regarding scientific advancement. As Aquinas points out potentiality does not mean actuality. That scientific advancement increased exponentially in the past centuries is quite clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1889490' date='Jun 13 2009, 01:19 AM']Uh huh. Which scientific Method is that?[/quote] "During the European Renaissance of the 12th century, ideas on scientific methodology, including Aristotle's empiricism and the experimental scientific methods of Alhazen and Avicenna, were introduced to medieval Europe through Latin translations of Arabic and Greek texts and commentaries. Robert Grosseteste's (a Catholic Bishop btw) commentary on the Posterior Analytics places Grosseteste among the first scholastic thinkers in Europe to fully understand Aristotle's vision of the dual path of scientific reasoning. Concluding from particular observations into a universal law, and then back again: from universal laws to prediction of particulars. Grosseteste called this "resolution and composition". Further, Grosseteste said that both paths should be verified through experimentation in order to verify the principles." [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_scientific_method#Robert_Grosseteste"]Source[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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