Paladin D Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888424' date='Jun 11 2009, 11:25 AM']The Dark Ages and Middle Ages were wonderful times. Those were the ages when Christendom was at its height.[/quote] I wouldn't say they were wonderful times, considering a Counter-Reformation took place not only to counter the Protestant Reformation, but to also bring reform within the Catholic Church. There was a lot of silly business happening amongst some of the clergy within the Church that needed to be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888424' date='Jun 11 2009, 10:25 AM']The Dark Ages and Middle Ages were wonderful times. Those were the ages when Christendom was at its height.[/quote] Alriiiight. A Statist, and a Theocrat. Is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='Paladin D' post='1888530' date='Jun 11 2009, 02:50 PM']I wouldn't say they were wonderful times, considering a Counter-Reformation took place not only to counter the Protestant Reformation, but to also bring reform within the Catholic Church. There was a lot of silly business happening amongst some of the clergy within the Church that needed to be addressed.[/quote] I agree. And also the Church recognises the error of combining the affairs of church and the affairs of state. Church teaching is to form proper policy; not to become civil law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1888528' date='Jun 11 2009, 02:46 PM']Something tells me what you think the Church means by "within due limits" and "provided that just public order be observed" is not what you are taking it to mean.[/quote] We need to interpret [i]Dignitatis Humanae[/i] in light of the teachings of previous Popes and Councils, not in a vacuum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1888564' date='Jun 11 2009, 05:15 PM']Alriiiight. A Statist, and a Theocrat. Is that correct?[/quote] I am only a Statist if by that term you mean that I believe that all governing authority comes from God. I am only a Theocrat if by that term you mean that I believe that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888567' date='Jun 11 2009, 06:25 PM']We need to interpret [i]Dignitatis Humanae[/i] in light of the teachings of previous Popes and Councils, not in a vacuum.[/quote] And the previous popes and councils believe we need Catholic states that deny freedom of speech to non-Catholics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1888611' date='Jun 11 2009, 07:17 PM']And the previous popes and councils believe we need Catholic states that deny freedom of speech to non-Catholics?[/quote] Here's what Leo XIII said about freedom of speech and freedom of the press: "We must now consider briefly liberty of speech, and liberty of the press. It is hardly necessary to say that there can be no such right as this, if it be not used in moderation, and if it pass beyond the bounds and end of all true liberty. For right is a moral power which -- as We have before said and must again and again repeat -- it is absurd to suppose that nature has accorded indifferently to truth and falsehood, to justice and injustice. Men have a right freely and prudently to propagate throughout the State what things soever are true and honorable, so that as many as possible may possess them; but Iying opinions, than which no mental plague is greater, and vices which corrupt the heart and moral life should be diligently repressed by public authority, lest they insidiously work the ruin of the State. The excesses of an unbridled intellect, which unfailingly end in the oppression of the untutored multitude, are no less rightly controlled by the authority of the law than are the injuries inflicted by violence upon the weak. And this all the more surely, because by far the greater part of the community is either absolutely unable, or able only with great difficulty, to escape from illusions and deceitful subtleties, especially such as flatter the passions. If unbridled license of speech and of writing be granted to all, nothing will remain sacred and inviolate; even the highest and truest mandates of natures, justly held to be the common and noblest heritage of the human race, will not be spared. Thus, truth being gradually obscured by darkness, pernicious and manifold error, as too often happens, will easily prevail. Thus, too, license will gain what liberty loses; for liberty will ever be more free and secure in proportion as license is kept in fuller restraint. In regard, however, to all matter of opinion which God leaves to man's free discussion, full liberty of thought and of speech is naturally within the right of everyone; for such liberty never leads men to suppress the truth, but often to discover it and make it known." (Pope Leo XIII, [i]Libertas praestantissimum[/i] 23) N.B. [i]Dignitatis Humanae[/i] says that "[This Vatican Council] leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ." (Second Ecumenical Vatican Council, [i]Dignitatis Humanae[/i] 1) Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888572' date='Jun 11 2009, 05:43 PM']I am only a Statist if by that term you mean that I believe that all governing authority comes from God. I am only a Theocrat if by that term you mean that I believe that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship[/quote] So what you are describing is... "Totalitarian Catholicism"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1888723' date='Jun 11 2009, 10:02 PM']So what you are describing is... "Totalitarian Catholicism"?[/quote] Only if you call the Magisterium of the Church totalitarian. The Catechism says: "The authority required by the moral order derives from God: 'Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.'" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1899) Bl. Pius IX condemned the following proposition in the [i]Syllabus of Errors[/i]: "In this age of ours it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be the only religion of the state, to the exclusion of all other cults whatsoever." (Denzinger-Schonmezter 2977) Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888424' date='Jun 11 2009, 10:25 AM']The Dark Ages and Middle Ages were wonderful times. Those were the ages when Christendom was at its height.[/quote] ughhhhhhh...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) I'm honestly surprised at how many here don't think that the Middle Ages were great times. I would say that the Middle Ages were the best period in the history of the world after the thirty-three years during which Christ was visibly among us, the years of our Lady's earthly life, the apostolic age, and of course the time when our first parents lived in original justice. Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888890' date='Jun 12 2009, 01:10 AM']I'm honestly surprised at how many here don't think that the Middle Ages were great times. I would say that the Middle Ages were the best period in the history of the world after the thirty-three years during which Christ was visibly among us, the years of our Lady's earthly life, the apostolic age, and of course the time when our first parents lived in original justice.[/quote] [img]http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t978/T978459A.jpg[/img] Oh yeah. The middle ages were awesome. Yay torture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Kitty' post='1888903' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:52 AM'][img]http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t978/T978459A.jpg[/img] Oh yeah. The middle ages were awesome. Yay torture![/quote] There is still torture today... But do you know what we don't have today? We don't have a large number of powerful states which recognize Catholicism as their official religion; nor do we have a culture that is overwhelmingly Catholic; nor do we have hordes of vocations. Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 So? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Living in a secular humanist not to mention pornographic culture certainly doesn't make practicing Catholicism any easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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