Saul Of Tarsus

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Era Might' date='16 January 2010 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1263664099' post='2038529']
True. And I think that is precisely why the early Christians did not use the sword in their defense:

[quote]For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

--Ephesians 6:12[/quote]

[/quote]

Truly, these are the most important things. But not the only things. We are body-soul composites.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 16, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Era Might]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 January 2010 - 02:33 PM' timestamp='1263670412' post='2038627']
Truly, these are the most important things. But not the only things. We are body-soul composites.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Indeed. But that is not my point. My point is simply that the early Christians did NOT use the sword to defend themselves against flesh and blood. Whether other people can do so is another discussion. I'm just saying that the early Christians did NOT do so...and I have my opinions as to WHY they did not do so, as I explained in my first post:

[quote name='Era Might' date='13 January 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1263434708' post='2036608']I would say that the early Christians were, in a certain sense, not innocent people; or rather, they were not civilians. They were soldiers for Christ. Their weapon was "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" (Ephesians 6:17). For the early Christians to have resorted to earthly weapons would have been, in a certain sense, to desert the army of Christ for another army, to become traitors. That is why they did not kill people like Saul. They all understood that they were soldiers for Christ, and they fought with spiritual weapons. If anyone was going to be killed, the early Christians wanted it to be they themselves, for the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.

[quote]Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

--Romans 12:19-21[/quote][/quote]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Era Might' date='16 January 2010 - 02:38 PM' timestamp='1263670700' post='2038632']
Indeed. But that is not my point. My point is simply that the early Christians did NOT use the sword to defend themselves against flesh and blood. Whether other people can do so is another discussion. I'm just saying that the early Christians did NOT do so...and I have my opinions as to WHY they did not do so, as I explained in my first post:


[/quote]

Those examples are good. I respect the early Christians. They accomplished more for the Church in their deaths than they would have by the act of taking arms against their aggressors itself. I completely agree. However, they might have accomplished more good in their lifetimes if they had lived. They might have done more good, and been martyred later, in addition. One should be eager and willing to die for Christ. But if it is not necessary, one is not required to die for Christ. One is not always obliged to refuse to use licit means to defend oneself, nor is one always obliged to put oneself in dangerous situations in order to facilitate dying for Christ.

I have no doubt that silent prayers in front of an abortion mill have prevented more abortions than killing an abortionist ever would.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 16, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Mr.Cat]

I personally tend to think that an individual person is not authorized to kill anyone, and I tend to think that justifying what is wrong even because we find it necessary is a bit silly. While we can classify our crimes and sins differently because of circumstances and perspective, we cannot ultimately rid ourselves that regardless of the kind of a murder, there is still someone dead. Christianity must be a religion of peace and that peace perhaps is worth dying for, but I would like to imagine there are better solutions than killing anyone...

[Era Might]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='16 January 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1263677156' post='2038695']
I personally tend to think that an individual person is not authorized to kill anyone, and I tend to think that justifying what is wrong even because we find it necessary is a bit silly. While we can classify our crimes and sins differently because of circumstances and perspective, we cannot ultimately rid ourselves that regardless of the kind of a murder, there is still someone dead. Christianity must be a religion of peace and that peace perhaps is worth dying for, but I would like to imagine there are better solutions than killing anyone...
[/quote]
I do not believe that we can never kill, but I do believe that we must never kill in the name of, in service of, or in defense of, the Gospel/Church. If we kill, I believe it should be done solely in the name of natural law, and even then I believe that killing is a very dangerous thing to be dealing in, and it requires great prudence and great restraint.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Era Might' date='16 January 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1263677477' post='2038698']
I do not believe that we can never kill, but I do believe that we must never kill in the name of, in service of, or in defense of, the Gospel/Church. If we kill, I believe it should be done solely in the name of natural law, and even then I believe that killing is a very dangerous thing to be dealing in, and it requires great prudence and great restraint.
[/quote]

[img]http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/c/co/councilofclermont.jpg[/img]

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Era Might' date='16 January 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1263677477' post='2038698']
I do not believe that we can never kill, but I do believe that we must never kill in the name of, in service of, or in defense of, the Gospel/Church. If we kill, I believe it should be done solely in the name of natural law, and even then I believe that killing is a very dangerous thing to be dealing in, and it requires great prudence and great restraint.[/quote]Anyone under the delusions that they are authorized individually by any authority ([i]real or imagined[/i]) to kill any person, regardless of reasons or circumstances, is a danger to themselves and society. Regrettably there are some circumstances in some perspectives that killing seems to be necessary, but that does not change that killing is wrong, it merely shows that in some circumstances we are willing to forgive, tolerate, or accept this seeming and regrettable “[i]necessary killing[/i]”.

The focus of this discussion in my personal opinion ought to be at maintaining peace, a constant and vigilant watch that must be kept by all citizens of a society, to prevent and deter manifested threats to that peace in the most peaceful way possible.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='16 January 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1263678771' post='2038707']
Anyone under the delusions that they are authorized individually by any authority ([i]real or imagined[/i]) to kill any person, regardless of reasons or circumstances, is a danger to themselves and society. Regrettably there are some circumstances in some perspectives that killing seems to be necessary, but that does not change that killing is wrong, it merely shows that in some circumstances we are willing to forgive, tolerate, or accept this seeming and regrettable “[i]necessary killing[/i]”.

The focus of this discussion in my personal opinion ought to be at maintaining peace, a constant and vigilant watch that must be kept by all citizens of a society, to prevent and deter manifested threats to that peace in the most peaceful way possible.
[/quote]
Killing other humans is definitely a natural evil, and when we kill another human we have been defeated by the prince of this world, who "was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44). For Christians, the struggle for peace is a struggle to live up to "the beginning" (i.e., before the Fall of Adam and Eve) which Christ has restored. But we are constantly struggling between living in this fallen world, and living in the Eschaton, and sometimes it may be necessary to kill, even though that means we have failed to live up to the Eschaton. That is why we pray for Christ's return, when we will have a new heavens and a new earth, and when "death shall be no more" (Revelation 21:4).

The kingdoms of this world are concerned with preserving the things of this world, which is why they may sometimes legitimately resort to the sword of this world. But the Church's vocation is to witness to the Eschaton, and that is why I believe that the sword of this world has no place being used in the name of, in service of, or in defense of, the Gospel/Church; the Church's only sword must be "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" (Ephesians 6:17).

[Nihil Obstat]

Era, do you disagree with the Pope having bodyguards?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='16 January 2010 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1263681015' post='2038736']
Era, do you disagree with the Pope having bodyguards?
[/quote]
Yes.

[Nihil Obstat]

I see.

[Resurrexi]

I think the idea of the Pope commanding armies is a pretty interesting one.

[AccountDeleted]

We got off the topic of Saul and I in this thread and I understand why because it is the underlying principle that is important. That being the case, I might point out that I had a discussion with my agnostic sister last night about the abortionist murder issue. We didn't get into her personal morality, but I am pretty sure that she doesn't see the unborn fetus as a human being since she doesn't believe in God. Most of my family see the fetus as a collection of body tissues, blood etc that belong to the woman's body and cannot exist without her, so it is her body, not a separate life. I only point that out because she is an example of a very good person (extrememly good in fact) who hasn't yet received the grace of understanding about this issue.

Her comment to me that really struck home however was when she said that as far as she was concerned, the Catholic fanatics who kill abortion doctors (who are performing in a perfectly legal capacity) are no different than Muslim terrorists who kill and die for their belief in God. She said anyone can justify murdering others based on their own religion and now Catholics are just joining the terrorist mindset. She also asked me how Catholics could justify this according to how Jesus lived when he told us to do good to those who would do us harm.

We are not converting people through violence, we are alienating them. Mahatma Ghandi was right when he said "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='nunsense' date='16 January 2010 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1263682481' post='2038758']We got off the topic of Saul and I in this thread and I understand why because it is the underlying principle that is important. That being the case, I might point out that I had a discussion with my agnostic sister last night about the abortionist murder issue. We didn't get into her personal morality, but I am pretty sure that she doesn't see the unborn fetus as a human being since she doesn't believe in God. Most of my family see the fetus as a collection of body tissues, blood etc that belong to the woman's body and cannot exist without her, so it is her body, not a separate life. I only point that out because she is an example of a very good person (extrememly good in fact) who hasn't yet received the grace of understanding about this issue.

Her comment to me that really struck home however was when she said that as far as she was concerned, the Catholic fanatics who kill abortion doctors (who are performing in a perfectly legal capacity) are no different than Muslim terrorists who kill and die for their belief in God. She said anyone can justify murdering others based on their own religion and now Catholics are just joining the terrorist mindset. She also asked me how Catholics could justify this according to how Jesus lived when he told us to do good to those who would do us harm.

We are not converting people through violence, we are alienating them. Mahatma Ghandi was right when he said "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."[/quote]+1

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='16 January 2010 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1263681015' post='2038736']
Era, do you disagree with the Pope having bodyguards?
[/quote]

Honestly, I'm somewhat ambivalent about the pope having bodyguards. I think he has the right to effective defense, but at the same time, the Vicar of Christ on earth should count it a blessing to follow the path blazed by Christ and Saint Peter. May God forbid the day that the Pope should stop giving open-air audiences, or reach out to trustingly and physically touch the faithful in St. Peter's square, due to the presence of bodyguards and bulletproof windows. Many people would probably have it that way.

~Sternhauser