American Revolution

[Lilllabettt]

WillT, the South has always been poorer. Before, during, and after the Civil War.

I think the stereotyping you speak of is mostly (not all) in the head. Minorities tend to think that poor customer service is racist. Old people think they didn't get the job because of ageism. Girls think the boys don't like them because they're fat. When the reality is the clerk behind the counter is making minimum wage and doesn't give a care, the older guy's resume wasn't good enough and the girl's personality is lousy. "It's cuz I'm from the South" is one other rationalization the typical human uses to preserve ego.

FYI to all:

1. I reject the Marxist interpretation of the Civil War. Not because it is Marxist. Marxism is not intrinsically evil. I reject it because it is wrong.
And boring. And the same crummy simplistic mush I was force fed in history class K-12. The older generation is passing away. It is time to revise the revisers.

2. I don't think Lincoln was motivated primarily by money. That does not mean I think he was a saint. I think he, like most people, fell ass-backwards into greatness. Life is complicated, people are complicated. Abraham don't fit in your little box. Bust out the crayons and pick out "silver" "granite" and other shades of grey.

[WillT]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='27 February 2010 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1267313040' post='2063964']
WillT, the South has always been poorer. Before, during, and after the Civil War.

I think the stereotyping you speak of is mostly (not all) in the head. Minorities tend to think that poor customer service is racist. Old people think they didn't get the job because of ageism. Girls think the boys don't like them because they're fat. When the reality is the clerk behind the counter is making minimum wage and doesn't give a care, the older guy's resume wasn't good enough and the girl's personality is lousy. "It's cuz I'm from the South" is one other rationalization the typical human uses to preserve ego.

FYI to all:

1. I reject the Marxist interpretation of the Civil War. Not because it is Marxist. Marxism is not intrinsically evil. I reject it because it is wrong.
And boring. And the same crummy simplistic mush I was force fed in history class K-12. The older generation is passing away. It is time to revise the revisers.

2. I don't think Lincoln was motivated primarily by money. That does not mean I think he was a saint. I think he, like most people, fell ass-backwards into greatness. Life is complicated, people are complicated. Abraham don't fit in your little box. Bust out the crayons and pick out "silver" "granite" and other shades of grey.
[/quote]
Umm, all the examples I gave are things people have said to my face so I'm relatively certain it was not all in my head nor was it an attempt to "preserve" my ego.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='WillT' date='27 February 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1267315547' post='2063986']
Umm, all the examples I gave are things people have said to my face so I'm relatively certain it was not all in my head nor was it an attempt to "preserve" my ego.
[/quote]


I wasn't talking about you personally.

I mean to cast doubt on your suggestion that the "Lost Cause" phenomenon is caused by on-going social stigma attached to southern residency.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='27 February 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1267313040' post='2063964']
2. I don't think Lincoln was motivated primarily by money. That does not mean I think he was a saint. I think he, like most people, fell ass-backwards into greatness. Life is complicated, people are complicated. Abraham don't fit in your little box. Bust out the crayons and pick out "silver" "granite" and other shades of grey.
[/quote]

Not money. Not "capitalist interests." That's completely accidental to the real motive: love of power. Pride of life. This is a man who would sit like a schoolchild, gleefully drinking in stories of the destruction wrought by Sherman's "bummers." He cursed like a drunken sailor. He unconstitutionally suspended the writ of habeas corpus and imprisoned [i]thousands[/i] of people, many of them newspapermen, without trial, for opposing his war. He shut down [i]hundreds[/i] of newspapers. His beloved top general, Sherman, admitted after the war that knew from his education at West Point that what he had done during the war could have easily gotten him court-martialled and executed for war crimes.

He was a thug of a human being. He was a tyrant whose passing I mourn only because of its tardiness. And because his immortal soul, created in the image and likeness of God, quite possibly faced eternal hellfire for his vile actions.

The worst thugs in the world aren't wearing baggy pants and flashing gang symbols in the ghetto. They're wearing pinstripe suits and American flag lapel pins, and they stride clean marble halls every day. Robbing current and future generations of trillions of dollars, and murdering innocents through abortion and wars of aggression. Every day.

Let me close with this: Blessed Pope Pius IX [url="http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/02/pope-pius-ix-and-confederacy.html"]recognized[/url] Jefferson Davis as the leader of a sovereign entity, addressing his letters to the "Honorable President of the Confederate States of America." Jefferson Davis had written to the Pope: "We desire no evil to our enemies, nor do we covet any of their possessions; but are only struggling to the end that they shall cease to devastate our land and inflict useless and cruel slaughter upon our people." [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/6917990/Vatican-reveals-Secret-Archives.html"]Vatican Letters[/url]. If you ever go to the Confederate Memorial Museum in New Orleans, you will find a crown of thorns, you will find the autographed photo sent to him by Pius IX. Did you ever learn that in your K-12 classes?

~Sternhauser

Edited February 28, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='26 February 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1267214951' post='2063279']
Interestingly, the Emancipation Proclamation did not free the slaves in the states of Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware (the "border states"). I say "interestingly" because those states never declared secession from the Union.
[/quote]
Kentucky actually had 2 governments during part of the Civil War (I'm a Kentuckian, have to point that out ), but yeah, you're absolutely correct that the only slaves the Emancipation Proclamation freed were those in the Confederacy. Purely a political move.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='28 February 2010 - 05:43 AM' timestamp='1267335827' post='2064131']
Let me close with this: Blessed Pope Pius IX [url="http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/02/pope-pius-ix-and-confederacy.html"]recognized[/url] Jefferson Davis as the leader of a sovereign entity, addressing his letters to the "Honorable President of the Confederate States of America." Jefferson Davis had written to the Pope: "We desire no evil to our enemies, nor do we covet any of their possessions; but are only struggling to the end that they shall cease to devastate our land and inflict useless and cruel slaughter upon our people." [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/6917990/Vatican-reveals-Secret-Archives.html"]Vatican Letters[/url]. If you ever go to the Confederate Memorial Museum in New Orleans, you will find a crown of thorns, you will find the autographed photo sent to him by Pius IX. Did you ever learn that in your K-12 classes?
[/quote]
I did not know that - thanks.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' date='28 February 2010 - 04:28 AM' timestamp='1267349308' post='2064176']
Kentucky actually had 2 governments during part of the Civil War (I'm a Kentuckian, have to point that out ), but yeah, you're absolutely correct that the only slaves theEmancipation Proclamation freed were those in the Confederacy. Purely apolitical move.[/quote]

In other words, the Emancipation Proclamation did not free a single slave. It was, as Lincoln called it, merely his "trump card."

[quote]I did not know that - thanks.
[/quote]

You're welcome.

I meant to delete the part of the crown of thorns. It was not sent to him by the Pope.

~Sternhauser

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='28 February 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1267374024' post='2064241']
You're welcome.

I meant to delete the part of the crown of thorns. It was not sent to him by the Pope.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
I thought it was?


Actually, after some reading (about 20 minutes passed between the writing of this line and the previous) according to a few sources I found online, it's still unresolved as to whether or not it was actually sent by the Pope or not.



Unrelated:
This was an interesting read:
http://catholicism.org/catholicism-south.html

And a quote from Lincoln (from the article):
"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world." (1847)

If not a tyrant, then certainly a hypocrite.

Edited February 28, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='28 February 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1267396669' post='2064453']
If not a tyrant, then certainly a hypocrite.
[/quote]

"Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself."

[Vincent Vega]

Your quote is not applicable.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='28 February 2010 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1267398362' post='2064469']
Your quote is not applicable.
[/quote]

Yes, it is.

[Vincent Vega]

No, it is not.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='28 February 2010 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1267398232' post='2064467']
"Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself."
[/quote]

Lincoln's fault wasn't simply "neglect" or a "lack of courage or industry."

As it stands, his acts were a deliberate, egregious and total contravention of the principles he claimed to support. It isn't simple hypocrisy. It's a bully saying, "Yes, go ahead and take that candy bar, I won't hit you," then proceeding to pound the person who took his advice into the [i]ground. [/i]That's not hypocrisy. That's a filthy lie. This is nothing more than "Read my lips, no new taxes" with hundreds of thousands of deaths in its wake.

~Sternhauser

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='28 February 2010 - 07:06 PM' timestamp='1267402009' post='2064529']
Lincoln's fault wasn't simply "neglect" or a "lack of courage or industry."

As it stands, his acts were a deliberate, egregious and total contravention of the principles he claimed to support. It isn't simple hypocrisy. It's a bully saying, "Yes, go ahead and take that candy bar, I won't hit you," then proceeding to pound the person who took his advice into the [i]ground. [/i]That's not hypocrisy. That's a filthy lie. This is nothing more than "Read my lips, no new taxes" with hundreds of thousands of deaths in its wake.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
This.

I was just waiting for someone to ask "but why?"

[Lilllabettt]

Balanced discussions of Lincoln, civil liberties, slavery, and the Civil War:

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Our-Lincoln-New-Perspectives-World/dp/0393067564/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top"]New Perspectives on Lincoln and His World[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/This-Republic-Suffering-American-Vintage/dp/0375703837/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267413556&sr=1-18"]This Repubilc of Suffering[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Great-Task-Remaining-Third-Lincolns/dp/061899064X/ref=sr_1_58?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267413836&sr=1-58"]The Third Year of Lincoln's War[/url]



Spit that kool-aid out. Think independent thoughts.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Lilllabettt

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='28 February 2010 - 04:29 PM' timestamp='1267414154' post='2064601']
Balanced discussions of Lincoln, civil liberties, slavery, and the Civil War:

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Our-Lincoln-New-Perspectives-World/dp/0393067564/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top"]New Perspectives on Lincoln and His World[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/This-Republic-Suffering-American-Vintage/dp/0375703837/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267413556&sr=1-18"]This Repubilc of Suffering[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Great-Task-Remaining-Third-Lincolns/dp/061899064X/ref=sr_1_58?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267413836&sr=1-58"]The Third Year of Lincoln's War[/url]



Spit that kool-aid out. Think independent thoughts.
[/quote]

If they agree with you, they won't be thinking "independent" thoughts, will they? Have you actually read any of those titles you recommend?

S.