Anne Catherine Emmerich ~ Evangelicals

[Bruce S]

With the Passion movie being out there and the rage for commentary, I was researching something and came to this quote, anyone want to comment upon it?


[quote]

"I saw many pastors cherishing dangerous ideas against the Church. . . . They built a large, singular, extravagant church which was to embrace all creeds with equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics, and all denominations,[b] a true communion of the unholy [/b]with one shepherd and one flock. There was to be a Pope, a salaried Pope, without possessions. All was made ready, many things finished; but, in place of an altar, were only abomination and desolation. Such was the new church to be, and it was for it that he had set fire to the old one; but God designed otherwise."

--from Life and Revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich, Vol. 2, pp. 352-353
[/quote]

Now I will reserve comment until a few answer....

[Laudate_Dominum]

My goodness! I wouldn't mind seeing the full context of that quote. That's heavy stuff.

I assume ecumenism wouldn't be St. Catherine's bag.

[Bruce S]

Being the lone apostate left around these parts [ I don't count the almost Cathoic protestants here ] I follow many Catholic - Protestant issues, in fact, the intracies of this fascinate me.

That is why I come "slumming" here in the Romish lands...grin.

Anyway, another thing that I'm terrifically interested in is the apparations thing, that one either IS or is NOT "Kosher" and on one day, I'm IN with 'yuze guys' on the apparitions, the other sincerely terrified about what they are. I'm never sure on those things. [Yeah, I know... they are not REQUIRED of a Catholic to believe in ] but they are NEVER denounce by the church either.

Anyway, Emmerich is one of those who on the one hand had some massively provable visions [Mary's 'house' in Ephesus for example] but there are other aspects to her that .. to the Protestant mind ... continually on guard for "Angels of Light posing" really give one pause, the levitation thing for example, THAT one creeps me out.

Ecumenism, is another thing that I've studied hard, but not the way one might think I would approach it, I spend 99% of my time INSIDE OF Catholicsm looking OUT on this issue. As a hard core conservative, I relate to the ultra orthodox Catholics more than the liberal ones, and IF I WERE a Catholic still, I would almost be allied with Mel and Hutton Gibson. [I knew that one would surprise many here]

So, the visions, stigmata's, levitation and such with Emmerich provided some interesting thinking, the Delorous Passion is quite a read, from the few snippets that I've been able to find on the nets.

Just wondering what the "Uber Catholics" here on this Phat site REALLY though on Ecumenism, if you can't excommunicate us, nor convert us, why bother dealing with us at all if we are just plain old heretics?

Edited March 28, 2004 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

Oh, just to muddy the waters even further, my FAVORITE Catholic writer of all time is Malachai Martin, once a Jesuit, and a geopolitical GENIOUS. Years ago, I ran one of the most popular ULTRA conservative sites around, pre-internet, on Compuserve. We specialized in conspiracies, and the inner workings of Masonry, the CFR, New World Order, etc, were daily fare. In fact, I have megabytes of archieved material on those issues. [Including some fascinating Catholic stuff from Vatican behind the scenes events, banking, politics, world issues ]

I found a tape from Malachai the other day, and he has been dead for a few years now, where he outlined the sexual issues facing the church, and was dead on, despite his being dead'o for five years, so, without a doubt, as one of the pre-eminent exorcists of the Catholic Church, and a politician more than a priest, his insights held true, and his projections of future problems were accurate.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 28 2004, 08:56 AM'] Being the lone apostate left around these parts [ I don't count the almost Cathoic protestants here ] I follow many Catholic - Protestant issues, in fact, the intracies of this fascinate me.

That is why I come "slumming" here in the Romish lands...grin.

Anyway, another thing that I'm terrifically interested in is the apparations thing, that one either IS or is NOT "Kosher" and on one day, I'm IN with 'yuze guys' on the apparitions, the other sincerely terrified about what they are. I'm never sure on those things. [Yeah, I know... they are not REQUIRED of a Catholic to believe in ] but they are NEVER denounce by the church either.

Anyway, Emmerich is one of those who on the one hand had some massively provable visions [Mary's 'house' in Ephesus for example] but there are other aspects to her that .. to the Protestant mind ... continually on guard for "Angels of Light posing" really give one pause, the levitation thing for example, THAT one creeps me out.

Ecumenism, is another thing that I've studied hard, but not the way one might think I would approach it, I spend 99% of my time INSIDE OF Catholicsm looking OUT on this issue. As a hard core conservative, I relate to the ultra orthodox Catholics more than the liberal ones, and IF I WERE a Catholic still, I would almost be allied with Mel and Hutton Gibson. [I knew that one would surprise many here]

So, the visions, stigmata's, levitation and such with Emmerich provided some interesting thinking, the Delorous Passion is quite a read, from the few snippets that I've been able to find on the nets.

Just wondering what the "Uber Catholics" here on this Phat site REALLY though on Ecumenism, if you can't excommunicate us, nor convert us, why bother dealing with us at all if we are just plain old heretics? [/quote]
Bruce,

You bring up some interesting things. I too find many of the apparitions and visions to be very interesting. The prophecies of St. Catherine Laboure are really cool. I was reading this book and she basically knew exact details about things that were going to happen to Bishops and other people. I don't see how anyone could deny the supernatural origins. I don't know too much about Anne Catherine Emmerich, but from what I've read of the Dolorous Passion she certainly gives a startling amount of detail about ancient Jewish life for one so far removed from it.
Her visions must have been intense!

And just so you know, many apparitions and things have been condemned by the Church as either hoaxes or of demonic origin. I can't think of any off the top of my head but I have heard of this happening nonetheless.

My personal opinion on ecumenism is that its important because Christians should have charity and it is a terrible witness when Christians don't get along and persecute each other. Especially these days when the forces of the secular world threaten us from all sides. Its important to have some kind of unity, even if there isn't doctrinal agreement.
I do think that false-ecumenism is sickening. When people water down or bastardize doctrine for the sake of ecumenism. This is false and shouldn't happen. I also think that looking at non-Catholic Christians as plain old heretics isn't good because most of them were raised in it and aren't formal heretics so its better to think of them as seperated brethren. I consider people like Luther and Calvin to be plain old heretics.
So I think its important to be able to get along with protestants and have a mutual respect, but not be indifferent to the doctrinal issues. I think the example of the Pope is good because he doesn't water down the truth, but he still manages to have cooperative and fruitful relationships with non-Catholic churches. Conversion is primarily the job of the Holy Spirit and I don't think we are necessarily called to always dispute doctrine and try to debunk protestants. There is a time and place for this kind of thing, but it doesn't always have to be the main thing. Prayer and mutual respect for the persons (not the heresy) should come first.
What do you think Bruce?

God bless.

[Brother Adam]

I love you too Bruce

[littleflower+JMJ]

.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='littleflower' date='JMJ+Mar 28 2004, 11:44 AM'] .................... [/quote]
what do those dots mean flowery? I'm just curious.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Mar 28 2004, 12:07 PM'] what do those dots mean flowery? I'm just curious. [/quote]
actually they mean nothing...... i had posted something but decided not too after all


ahh........the powers of hte edit button

[Bruce S]

What do I think?

Well, honestly, and I'm just a glutton for punishment I guess....

I think Catholics are morphing into just pretty good Protestants in real life.

Surprised? I'm not.

Now you won't or won't ADMIT to that one, but look at what my life has shown ME.

1: Mass now in English.

2: Shaking hands during Mass.

3: Drinking wine at Mass.

4: Charismatic Catholic movement.

5: REAL Bible studies!!

6: Music NOT from the middle ages.

...

I could go on and on, pages of stuff actually, but right before our eyes, almost yearly now, I see the Catholic Church becoming more and more like the Evangelical Protestants, of course, you would DIE before actually admitting to any of this. But looking back to the Catholic Church of my childhood, in the 60s, it is almost completely unrecognizable as the same denomination.

Of course, most here, being much younger, won't or cannot understand that.

To me, the REAL shocker is the Bible. Yeah, the bible. NO CATHOLIC EVER SAW A BIBLE back then, honest. Unless you stole one out a pew at a Protestant funeral service you were at [the ONLY Protestant service most Catholics ever saw back then] you didn't even KNOW that you were supposed to USE or READ a Bible. It just never ever came up, you took the snippets the little propaganda books in the pews had [you still have those, I know, I use one ALONG WITH my bible at daily mass - don't forget, I've gone to Mass every weekday during Lent] and that was the closest you ever got to official teachings, that and the Baltimore Chaticism, if you even used that ...

[littleflower+JMJ]

oh bruce.....you try [i]so[/i] hard dont you

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='littleflower+JMJ' date='Mar 28 2004, 03:08 PM']oh bruce.....you try [i]so[/i] hard dont you

[/quote]
:saber: :argue: :pebcam: :knockout: lol he!he!

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 28 2004, 02:28 PM'] What do I think?

Well, honestly, and I'm just a glutton for punishment I guess....

I think Catholics are morphing into just pretty good Protestants in real life.

Surprised? I'm not.

Now you won't or won't ADMIT to that one, but look at what my life has shown ME.

1: Mass now in English.

2: Shaking hands during Mass.

3: Drinking wine at Mass.

4: Charismatic Catholic movement.

5: REAL Bible studies!!

6: Music NOT from the middle ages.

...

I could go on and on, pages of stuff actually, but right before our eyes, almost yearly now, I see the Catholic Church becoming more and more like the Evangelical Protestants, of course, you would DIE before actually admitting to any of this. But looking back to the Catholic Church of my childhood, in the 60s, it is almost completely unrecognizable as the same denomination.

Of course, most here, being much younger, won't or cannot understand that.

To me, the REAL shocker is the Bible. Yeah, the bible. NO CATHOLIC EVER SAW A BIBLE back then, honest. Unless you stole one out a pew at a Protestant funeral service you were at [the ONLY Protestant service most Catholics ever saw back then] you didn't even KNOW that you were supposed to USE or READ a Bible. It just never ever came up, you took the snippets the little propaganda books in the pews had [you still have those, I know, I use one ALONG WITH my bible at daily mass - don't forget, I've gone to Mass every weekday during Lent] and that was the closest you ever got to official teachings, that and the Baltimore Chaticism, if you even used that ... [/quote]
Ha! My goodness.. Hmm..

[quote]1: Mass now in English.[/quote]
This is nothing new really. The Liturgy has been done in the language of the people many times. When it was first done in latin it was because latin was the language of the people. Not a distinctively protestant thing. The Eastern Catholic Churches have been using the vernacular since before protestantism was a glimmer is Martin Luther's eye.
[quote]2: Shaking hands during Mass.[/quote]
There have been Liturgies within the Church from ancient times that involve gestures of this kind, even kisses and hugs. So this too is not a distinctively protestant thing. Personally I wish they never would have introduced that hand shake of peace, I think its assinine.
[quote]3: Drinking wine at Mass.[/quote]
Not distinctively protestant either. The Catholics did it first, a long time ago. And its never stopped in the Liturgy. The priest has always drank the Precious Blood. And in the East the Precious Blood has always been recieved by the laity.
[quote]4: Charismatic Catholic movement.[/quote]
Catholic charismatics typically adore Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, have devotion to the Mother of God, and various other non-protestant things. So its not that protestant. And the protestants don't have a patent on the Holy Spirit.
[quote]5: REAL Bible studies!![/quote]
The greatest Bible scholars in history were Catholics. Protestants have only been studying the Bible for a few centuries, Catholics have been doing it for thousands of years. And the Mass is more than a Bible study. The living Tradition which subsists in the Divine Liturgy is intrinsically linked with the Scripture and without this dimension one cannot transcend the hermeneutic circle.
[quote]6: Music NOT from the middle ages.[/quote]
Ack! Tell me about it. I can't stand the music... *sigh* The Church's treasury of sacred music is one of the greatest acheivements in the history of civilization.

Some of the things that might seem protestant are actually good. Some are not really good or bad, and some are outright scandalous. And just so you know there are many traditional parishes that have not the slightest hint of protestant sensibilities.

Peace.

[Bruce S]

[quote]And just so you know there are many traditional parishes that have not the slightest hint of protestant sensibilities.
[/quote]

yeah, I know, I've stayed off THAT THREAD here.

If I were a Catholic still, I would be a Hutton Gibson SSPX version.

Put that one on and try it for size.

Long live the Papal slippers!!!

Edited March 28, 2004 by Bruce S

[Livin_the_MASS]

Bruce check this quote out,

[quote][b]The Testimony of 2000 years[/b]

If the testimony of 2000 years does not effectively prove the Church of Rome to be the Institution founded by Jesus Christ on the Rock of Peter,[u][b] then the world has no Church of Christ at all![/b][/u]

Through 2,000 years, admist the widest possible variety of circumstances, the teachings of the Catholic Church have never swerved from the highest moral standard. On occasions - as in the case of King HenryVIII - the Church has preferred to lose everything rather than compromise in regard to the high morality of her doctrines. Rather than grant Henry the VIII his request, the Church preferred to lose the entire country of England!

[b]A non - Catholic, O.Pfleiderer said " In spite of all Protestant attempts to weaken it's force, it cannot be doubted that this passage (Mt.16:18) contains the solemn proclamation of the primacy of Peter. He is declared to be the foundation of the Church, the bearer of the keys and the sovereign lawgiver, whose precepts and prohibitions have the force of divinely sanctioned laws" (Fundamental Theology, page 119, Hender,St. Louis, 1931).[/b]

With the multiplicity of religious beliefs in the world today, there is an error that says: "It does not matter to which of the denominations you belong - Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc. - for Christ founded but one Church, a spiritual body with no earthly organization, and of that Church one only has to be Baptized and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior."

Contrary to the above, in the Gospels we see Christ setting up a visible organization, with a central authority and properly constituted officials, each with definite functions to perform regarding the Church as The Mystical Body of Christ which can be approached by, and which can excommunicate, its members: "If he will not hear them, tell the Church and if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican" (Mt 18:17). His words, "tell the Church," would be impossible of fulfillment if the Church were merely a spiritual society, which so many today believe.

"Where Peter is, there is the Church," said St. Ambrose. "According to the promise of the Lord," said St. Thomas Aquinas, "the apostolic Church of St. Peter and its Pontiffs, and in the full faith and authority of Peter remains free from all taint of heresy and deceit. And while other churches are shamed by errors, she reigns the solitary Church unshakably established, imposing silence and closing the mouths of heretics. And we, of necessity for our salvation, must proclaim and profess this pattern of holy, apostolic tradition."

St.Frances Xavier Cabrini said, "Who is the Holy Father? He is the representative of God, of His authority and majesty among men. The Holy Father is the instument of the Holy Spirit, the depository of treasures and secrets of God. He is the key of Knowledge for the Christian people. He has in his keeping the power to loose and to bind. The voice of the Holy Father is the voice of God. His word is the word of God. He is the living ark of the New Testament in which is contained the purity of the Catholic faith. The Pope must be considered the guide of the people and the ark of salvation for everyone."

St. Robert Bellarmine, who lived in the wake of the principal Protestant reformers (1542-1621) not only said, "The one and true Church is the assembly of men, bound together by the profession of the same Christian faith, and by the communion of the same sacraments, under the rule of legitimate pastors, and in particular of the one Vicar of Christ on earth, the Roman Pontiff,"[/quote]

Quote taken from "Does This Shock You?" by Louis Kaczmarek



[quote]What do I think?

Well, honestly, and I'm just a glutton for punishment I guess....

I think Catholics are morphing into just pretty good Protestants in real life.

Surprised? I'm not.

Now you won't or won't ADMIT to that one, but look at what my life has shown ME.

1: Mass now in English.

2: Shaking hands during Mass.

3: Drinking wine at Mass.

4: Charismatic Catholic movement.

5: REAL Bible studies!!

6: Music NOT from the middle ages.[/quote]

??????

Dont get the list Bruce?

God Bless
Jason