Why Call Yourself Catholic If You Hold A Dissenting View?

[Maggyie]

It's definitely not 70 percent. I remember a survey from 15-20 years ago that said 25 percent but I think it was shown that the methodology was skewing the numbers a bit. In most of these cases it's not a matter of rejecting the Real Presence but simply not understanding the teaching. Or a case of not being able to explain it to the person taking the survey. What people mean to say is "I don't believe I'm chewing on a chunk of human meat" but what they end up saying is, "it's a symbol."

[Jaime]

"its a symbol" means they don't believe in the real presence.

the 70% was a stat from a study I found back in the early nineties.

this one is much more optimistic and more current.

[quote]Eucharist and Belief in the Real Presence
Nine in ten weekly Mass attendees (91 percent) say they believe that Jesus Christ is really present in the Eucharist, compared to two-thirds of those who attend Mass less than weekly but at least once a month (65 percent), and four in ten of those attending Mass a few times a year or less (40 percent). Among Catholics attending Mass at least once a month, the youngest generation of Catholics (born after 1981) has similar beliefs about the Eucharist as Pre-Vatican II Generation Catholics (born before 1943).[/quote]

[rkwright]

[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1884921' date='Jun 6 2009, 11:37 AM']To be fair, I was referring to Catholics who know/have been informed of the truth about what the Church teaches on a subject, but have decided to go their own way regardless. Also, I'd like to point out that there is room for disagreement on those things which the Church has not made dogmatic statements. If a person disagrees with a Catholic dogma, though, he becomes a [i]de facto[/i] Protestant.[/quote]

Its amazing. If you hang around here long enough you'll find that even very orthodox people will argue that some dogma doesn't apply to them for some reason - much less any of the non-dogma stuff.

There is a good topic around here called "Can we ever dissent from the Magisterium?" It explains some of this.

To be fair, there does seem to be many things which we are allowed to have different opinions on.

I just hate seeing those arguments about how the catechism doesn't apply\its fallible or this and that dogma don't apply to me because it wasn't actually infallible\whatever the excuse is.

Edited June 9, 2009 by rkwright

[Nihil Obstat]

In terms of doctrine, the fact that it isn't dogma doesn't necessarily mean that Catholics may enjoy a range of opinions.
Political systems and the death penalty on one side, diversity of opinion is perfectly acceptable. In terms of, say, the gifts and fruits of the holy spirit though, because that's the first thing that popped into my head... is this defined infallibly? I don't believe so. Should you disagree with the Church about it? I'd highly recommend that you don't go there.

[cassandragirl]

[
I myself have a couple issues that I am intellectually convinced the Church is right on but my heart still rebels. Capital punishment, for instance. I have defended the Church's current teaching in public and in my soul I know it's true, but my first reaction to a murderer is still "fry him!" I have internal arguments with the Catechism (if you have never had an argument in your mind with a book, it's lots of fun lol). Ultimately I know that my heart needs to correspond with what my head knows to be true.


[/quote]

You prove yourself to be a faithful catholic here. Remember Christ said"Not everyone who keeps saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will get into the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven." Obedience is the higher virtue (even if we feel otherwise)- it leads to humility. Most of the saints struggled with similar things and it was their obedience to legitimate church authority that set them apart.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1884921' date='Jun 6 2009, 01:37 PM']I don't think a dogmatic pronouncement on capital punishment has been made (but welcome correction if I'm in error), so this is an issue that allows for some disagreement. Personally I lean toward having the death penalty, although with judicial reforms that I won't go into detail about here. While the Church is the pillar of truth and the gates of hell will not prevail against her, it is unfair to say that she is not influenced by whatever [i]zeitgeist[/i] is prevalent at a given time. The current spirit of the times has swung towards the anti-death-penalty stance, and many of those within the Church have swung with it.[/quote]

This is similar to the argument that I have with the Catechism! Because I am trying to form my conscience on this and some other issues I re-read it every once in awhile. And when I do read it, immediately I can feel the protests rising from my gut. And my arguments are powerful especially because they have much truth to them! The Church has not made any kind of dogmatic statement on the death penalty, and her teaching was dramatically different for most of history. True, true.

However when I examine my conscience after I am done being angry at the Catechism for saying what it says, (again I have this weird talent for having an emotional relationship with a book) I realize that my recourse to these facts is not based on a desire to fully conform to the Gospel but a desire to have my own way. When I use those arguments I personally am not looking for the Truth, I am looking for a loophole that will allow me to avoid the painful process of dying to myself and converting! I don't know about other people but it hurts a lot for me to admit that I am fundamentally wrong about something so important. I can do a lot of mental gymnastics to avoid that pain but I know that would be spiritually deadly to me.

Pope Benedict is coming out with a social encyclical pretty soon, "Veritas in caritate" and I think it is going to make a lot of conservatives (including me) squirm. Not because the pope will propose a particular political system as ideal but because his views on economic principles will probably differ from mine. And I understand that a certain amount of disagreement here is allowable. Still I hope that whatever squirming I do leads me deeper into communion with the Church and not in the opposite direction! Because that is what Christ is calling us to, a deeper and more complete conversion, even on the non-essentials.

[Nihil Obstat]

Disagreement about specific political systems is accepted, and even lauded, AS LONG AS Catholic principles are always enforced. That's not something that can be compromised.
It just so happens though, that in our imperfect world, Catholic principles can be met as fully as possible from our perspective, from a variety of different approaches.

I can't wait to hear what he has to say. I've been reading a lot of things by him lately.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1886726' date='Jun 8 2009, 07:40 PM']In terms of doctrine, the fact that it isn't dogma doesn't necessarily mean that Catholics may enjoy a range of opinions.
Political systems and the death penalty on one side, diversity of opinion is perfectly acceptable. In terms of, say, the gifts and fruits of the holy spirit though, because that's the first thing that popped into my head... is this defined infallibly? I don't believe so. Should you disagree with the Church about it? I'd highly recommend that you don't go there.[/quote]

Don't forget teachings of the ordinary universal magisterium are infallible too. I would wager a guess that the gift of the holy spirit is taught universally by the magisterium. Could be wrong...

[Guest Jon]

[color="#006400"]Good morning everyone,

I no longer struggle if I am a Catholic or not. I can't say that I am any more, with a heavy heart.
I loved the Catholic Church - it was my home - I miss it. Looking into Bishop
Fulton Sheen's eyes as I converted as a freshman in high school was one of the highlights
of my life. I love Catholics -was raised on one side of my family by them - I love the Rosary - I love the statues all over my house and property - I love Catholic Stores even ---I love the Churches, the Mass, my metals, EWTN, and all my books on the Saints and their blessed inspiring lives.
I love how you all believe in Mysticism more than Protestants, how your minds seem to grasp the higher realms - but especially - Communion.
I love so much about the simple expressions of adoration we/you guys have. ( See, it's hard for me to not say "we" still.) Protestants don't sit for hours at the Stations of the Cross, they don't bow their heads in front of a Crucufix or kneel on 2 knees in front of the Eucharist on First Fridays.

But, I have to say to people, "I used to be Catholic, yes. And I loved being Catholic."
I'm on another forum mainly Protestant/Evangelical and stick up for certain things about your beliefs all the time from havng been "inside".
Where they get all hot and heavy about ---"Where in scripture do they get 'this'?" I tell them gently about being taught this and that and how sweet it was to believe these things... (The lifelong virginity of Mary is an issue - her Immaculate Conception, her Ascension ..so many things they don't get and put Catholics down for...if you're wondering)

But, I guess, I just can't follow or trust a Church led by men that may change with the wind.
Sure, it may take decades to change. I'm not a scholar so I can't debate people here that are so knowledgeable about Church Doctrine --I am not.

I don't belong to a church, per se. My relationship with the Lord, Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are deep and intimate and personal. It's me and God. Not 'me, God and a Church, pastor, priest or minister' of any kind.

I've never been more connected to my Father God in my whole life. I follow what Jesus told me to do and it works - I don't worry, I cast my cares, I believe and receive, I'm anxious for nothing, and on and on. ( I know I follow what Paul and OT says also...)

If someone here wants to attack me and say "Well, Jesus said this and that about the church..." Well, I guess I'm not following everything -but you know what - my conscience is clear and He leads me always. I rely on the Holy Spirit profoundly. I don't rely on what any pastor or priest or doctrine set up by men said in the 3rd or 12th c or another's interpretation of the Bible - unless I agree, of course, ha!

But, you all can -and God Bless you if it works for you - if wasn't working for me. I love you all and will never judge you on your Path - my Path just forked away from Catholicism.
Good thing one doesn't have to be "Catholic" to be loved by God, His Son and the Holy Spirit- just to believe in them and trust them and pray to them and be open to them and worship them in your heart... and and and... no human intermediary for me.

Thank you - maybe I shouldn't have said anything and kept a lower profile -I'm not open to hostile attacks and I'll have to leave entirely if someone gets angry at me. Your still my brothers and sisters and love reading here. Anyone that loves God is a beautiful person and is blessed to my Father.

God Bless,
Jon[/color]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1886908' date='Jun 8 2009, 11:10 PM']Don't forget teachings of the ordinary universal magisterium are infallible too. I would wager a guess that the gift of the holy spirit is taught universally by the magisterium. Could be wrong...[/quote]
You're probably right. I was trying to think of a good example, and drew a complete blank.