Praise Be To Allah!

[Enda]

[quote name='Isidore' date='Apr 18 2004, 03:19 PM'] What did you think of the passages from the Quran I quoted? [/quote]
Eh, I've heard from Muslims and second hand sources that Islam believes that Jesus was the highest prophet next to Muhammed, and that they beleive in many prophets from many religions ( which ones escape me right now, but i know some Muslims think Buddah is a prophet, although that's not universal). They think that these prophets were sent to tell the world about Allah in parts before Muhammend came and it was fully revealed.

[Isidore]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='Apr 25 2004, 12:41 PM']
Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet and that the Virgin Mary was his mother.  But Islam denies that Jesus was the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, or that God is a Trinity of Persons at all.  It condemns Christianity as a religion that misunderstood Jesus and his message from the get go and turned Him into a God.  Only Muslems understand the "true" Jesus.

"62. Verily! This is the true narrative [about the story of 'Iesa (Jesus)], and, Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh (none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh, the One and the Only True God, Who has neither a wife nor a son). And indeed, Allâh is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."

Read:  Do not worship Jesus, Allah is the only God, and He has no Son.

Beware of Islam!  The curse of Allah be upon you, you infidels, is its message.  And Muslems are gonna help Allah carry out his curse, and some of them will die happily in the process.  Suicide in the cause of Allah is a ticket to paradise.    

JMJ Likos[/quote]

Katholikos,

You are correct in what the Quran states about Jesus, and the Trinity. I do have to ask, why would we be afraid? There are roughly 1.3 billion Muslims, not all of them feel the same way. Just like their are three billion or so Christians, and not all of us feel exactly the same way towards all doctrine.

I needed to edit, and add one more thing. They also don't believe Jesus died on the Cross. They believe that God opened the sky, and lifted Jesus body and Soul into heaven, before he died.

Ultimately it comes down to humans, and their own interpretations, or actions. The Muslims tell their children to fear us, and we tell our children to fear them. How will we ever come together? How will we ever fix our problems, if we are afraid? If we cannot learn and teach at the same time.

[i][b]If there is only one God, and he has revealed himself in Jesus Christ, why has he allowed so many religions? The Holy Father was asked this question by Italian journalist Vittorio Messori in the book "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" (Alfred A. Knopf, 1994).

John Paul II replied that "we should be amazed at the number of common elements found within them." Christ came into the world for all peoples, the Pope says. "He redeemed them all and has His own ways of reaching each of them in the present eschatological phase of salvation history."

Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, will note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside.

The God of the Koran is ultimately a God outside of the world...Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection. Jesus is mentioned, but only as a prophet who prepares for the last prophet, Muhammad. There is also mention of Mary, His Virgin Mother, but the tragedy of redemption is completely absent. For this reason not only the theology but also the anthropology of Islam is very distant from Christianity.

Nevertheless, the religiosity of Muslims deserves respect. The image of believers in Allah who, without caring about time or place, fall to their knees and immerse themselves in prayer remains a model for all, in particular for those Christians who, having deserted their magnificent cathedrals, pray only a little or not at all. [/b][/i]

The Holy Father is on to something here. I took his words seriously, and I would hope every other Catholic does the same. Just because they have some serious theological imperfections in their doctrine does not mean we should hate or ignore them. We will however have to understand that we will probably never convert them to Catholicism, or Christianity. I ask why should we even try? We can teach them through our actions, through mutual respect, through our love for all of God's children, no matter their religion.

Have you ever wondered why there are only three religions that worship the God of Abrahm? There also is a Trinity in Christianity, and the three person Godhead in Jewish belief? Why are these three religions so close, but still so far apart?

Why does the news media continue to make it a point to call the Jewish and Christian God simply God, but calls the Muslim God Allah? We all believe in the God revealed to us in the Torah, don't we? The God of Abraham, the God of Moses, and yes the God of Jesus. Maybe there is some reason we must all be at odds with one another. Maybe it is just more evil at work. What was God's plan with these three religions? These are the questions I want to know the answers to.

Christianity, and more precisely Catholic Christianity, in my oppinion is the fullest revelation of God's devine plan for us. There must be some benefit in having three religions devoted to the same God. I want to know what it is.

Maybe God wants us to see the utter devotion to the Law that the Jewish religion follows, and the complete submission of the Muslim religion to God, and the Love for all that is taught through Christianity. Maybe that is the whole point. We all, every human being needs to be full in our faith. Complete understanding and devotion to God, complete and full understanding of the Law, and also complete and uncompromising love for all of God's children. Wow, another Trinity thing there.

We as Christians should be weary of losing our faith, but we should not be afraid of learning. The gifts of the Holy Spirit include knowledge, and wisdom. We should use these to understand our differences, and find ways to come together.

Edited April 26, 2004 by Isidore

[Isidore]

[quote name='Enda' date='Apr 25 2004, 04:16 PM']Eh, I've heard from Muslims and second hand sources that Islam believes that Jesus was the highest prophet next to Muhammed, and that they beleive in many prophets from many religions ( which ones escape me right now, but i know some Muslims think Buddah is a prophet, although that's not universal).  They think that these prophets were sent to tell the world about Allah in parts before Muhammend came and it was fully revealed.[/quote]
Many prophets are mentioned by name in the Quran; for example, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus from the Bible, and also non ­Biblical prophets some of whose names are Luqman, Hud, and Dhul­Kifl. And, last of all, there is the Prophet Muhammad.

"Mankind is a single nation. So Allah raised prophets as bearers of good news and as warners. . ." (Quran 2:213)

"And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them (in belief), to them He will grant their rewards." (Quran 4:152)

"And certainly We raised in every nation a messenger, saying: Serve Allah and shun the devil." (Quran 16:36)

They believe that many prophets came in the name of God, and that they all should be reveared, and respected. These are the things that much of the world has no understanding of. The Muslim leaders have done a great job of covering it up, and actually going completely against the teachings of the Quran in respects to this one topic in particular.

I feel the best we can ever hope for, is simply mutual respect. Who will start? I feel we, as Christians are the ones whose religion embraces them, and as members of this great Christian Church, we should be the ones to start. It all begins with understanding, when we can understand them, then we can also explain to them the Gospel. The good news, that they have missed out on. If part of it is the Passion, and it comes by way of Mel's version, well Praise Allah.

[musturde]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Mar 28 2004, 12:03 AM'] Yes, awesome news!

Here's more:

The Passion of the Christ a hit in Beirut, Damascus

[url="http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=9408"]http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=9408[/url] [/quote]
Lebanon is already half Christian and many muslims there are bending their rules. You see, since they noticed the power of praying to the saints, many have done so themselves. When St. Thereze(the lil flower)'s Tomb was carried in Lebanon (when she was traveling the world, like a year ago), the streets were filled with people, cars could literally not be able to go through wherever she was. People threw roses, or whatever reasonable thing they had (although i dont know why rice is reasonable). Anywho, even the muslims celebrated the coming of St. Thereze once she entered their area. many people slept in the Church she was in (her body was in a Church for 2 days). People were soo devastated at the devotion of Lebanon to her that the leaders carrying her tomb gave Lebanon a part of her body to keep. When a french collumnist saw what happened over there on Arab tv (i guess he was flipping channels), he was shocked. He was pretty much freaking out that they did so much for her and france(her hometown) itself didn't do much. What ended up happenining is france redid the whole thing.
Anywho, the Lebanese part isnt such a big shock, but now Syria and all the rest of the middle east is.

Btw there is nothing wrong with calling God allah. I speak the language myself, it literally translates to God.

[Seven77]

praised be Issa al-Masih! (Jesus Christ in Arabic) i knew 'The Passion' would be watched by many in those places. thats great news!

thats awesome Musturde! even Muslims showing St. Therese respect. i read on www.theresemovie.com that the Little Flower is called 'Allah's little Saint' by some Muslims!

[Seven77]

Isidore, good posts.. interestin thread. i love the fact that Mother Mary is held so highly and i know that talking about Her will be very fruitful

one thing though --- some of those quotes you posted deny the Divinity of Christ.

[MorphRC]

Pax Iesus

Wow. Im surprised by that, if they get caught they wont have a head in 24hrs though, even seems Muslims are unintentionally doing some evangelization for us.

Miracles keep coming

Pax Iesus Christi
Paul.

[Aloysius]

my opinion: Mohammad studied Christianity and couldn't accept stuff like the Trinity and such, so he started his own religion. I don't know if he had an actual vision/hullucination or what, but if he did it was subconsiously brought on by his desire to believe in the God of the Jews and the Christians but reject their Doctrine. i'm not sure about Mohammad's Islam somehow being different... ppl try to claim that stuff all the time about Christianity, say Constantine Paganized it or some crazy hullabaloo about how the Church changed and strayed from Christ's message. all that Isidore said could very well be the same type of deal and in actuality Mohomad's Islam is still today's Islam.

You know, Mary and Jesus rock. No major world Religion can quite deny Jesus' importance. The Hindus equate Him with Krishna, the Muslims consider him the Christ and a prophet (they think he slipped away like He had done before when they wanted to kill Him and someone else was crucified in his place, and he went on to live in modern day pakistan) The Jews consider Him to have been a good teacher, and Mormons believe Him to be one of their three gods who holds the office of God, Jehova's witnesses believe Him to be an Angel, And Catholics and mainstream Protestants believe Him to be the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

And Mary also bridges the gap. We see in the Passion's actor that modern Jewish women can relate to her because she was also a Jewish woman, Islam considers her sinless, Catholocism and Orthodoxy and some Protestants (rare, but i've heard of it) consider her sinless. I'm not sure if Hindus have an opinion on her, i'll look into it.

Anyway, Mary can definitely be the bridge for Muslims to find the True Christ.

oh, and did you know, Mohammad's daughter's name was [color=blue]FATIMA[/color]

[musturde]

By the way, muslims visit some monument for the Blessed Virgen I think it's Our Lady of Lebanon. I saw some there when I visited. (Muslims respect Mary as the mother of a prophet and even have a section bout her in the quran(sp?) from what I've heard.)

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 27 2004, 06:01 AM'] my opinion: Mohammad studied Christianity and couldn't accept stuff like the Trinity and such, so he started his own religion. I don't know if he had an actual vision/hullucination or what, but if he did it was subconsiously brought on by his desire to believe in the God of the Jews and the Christians but reject their Doctrine. i'm not sure about Mohammad's Islam somehow being different... ppl try to claim that stuff all the time about Christianity, say Constantine Paganized it or some crazy hullabaloo about how the Church changed and strayed from Christ's message. all that Isidore said could very well be the same type of deal and in actuality Mohomad's Islam is still today's Islam.

You know, Mary and Jesus rock. No major world Religion can quite deny Jesus' importance. The Hindus equate Him with Krishna, the Muslims consider him the Christ and a prophet (they think he slipped away like He had done before when they wanted to kill Him and someone else was crucified in his place, and he went on to live in modern day pakistan) The Jews consider Him to have been a good teacher, and Mormons believe Him to be one of their three gods who holds the office of God, Jehova's witnesses believe Him to be an Angel, And Catholics and mainstream Protestants believe Him to be the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

And Mary also bridges the gap. We see in the Passion's actor that modern Jewish women can relate to her because she was also a Jewish woman, Islam considers her sinless, Catholocism and Orthodoxy and some Protestants (rare, but i've heard of it) consider her sinless. I'm not sure if Hindus have an opinion on her, i'll look into it.

Anyway, Mary can definitely be the bridge for Muslims to find the True Christ.

oh, and did you know, Mohammad's daughter's name was [color=blue]FATIMA[/color] [/quote]
Pax Iesus Aloysis.

Youve hit the nail on the head..kinda. The Church and the Byzantine Empire often banished heretics to Arabia and parts in Eastern Europe, upper towards Modern Day russia, you would also notice if you'd study, I came across this by accident myself, that much of the doctrines on Christ and Mary are from GNOSTIC writings, especially the Surah Mariam, the only different is she was found under a Palm Tree in one of the stories, I got the link. Also this story was around in the 5th century over 150years before Muhammad, but Muhammad has copied it and added to the story.

[color=blue][19.23] And the throes (of childbirth) compelled her to betake herself to the trunk of a palm tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten!
[19.24] Then (the child) called out to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely your Lord has made a stream to flow beneath you;
[19.25] And shake towards you the trunk of the palmtree, it will drop on you fresh ripe dates:
[19.26] So eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent God, so I shall not speak to any man today.[/color]

Church Fathers: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0848.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0848.htm[/url]

[b]Quran[/b]

[color=green]Chapter 20

And it came to pass on the third day of their journey, while they were walking, that the blessed Mary was fatigued by the excessive heat of the sun in the desert; and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: Let me rest a little under the shade of this tree. Joseph therefore made haste, and led her to the palm, and made her come down from her beast. And as the blessed Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it full of fruit, and said to Joseph: I wish it were possible to get some of the fruit of this palm. And Joseph said to her: I wonder that thou sayest this, when thou seest how high the palm tree is; and that thou thinkest of eating of its fruit. I am thinking more of the want of water, because the skins are now empty, and we have none wherewith to refresh ourselves and our cattle. Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, reposing in the bosom of His mother, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and refresh my mother with thy fruit. And immediately at these words the palm bent its top down to the very feet of the blessed Mary; and they gathered from it fruit, with which they were all refreshed. And after they had gathered all its fruit, it remained bent down, waiting the order to rise from Him who had commanded it to stoop. Then Jesus said to it: Raise thyself, O palm tree, and be strong, and be the companion of my trees, which are in the paradise of my Father; and open from thy roots a vein of water which has been hid in the earth, and let the waters flow, so that we may be satisfied from thee. And it rose up immediately, and at its root there began to come forth a spring of water exceedingly clear and cool and sparkling. And when they saw the spring of water, they rejoiced with great joy, and were satisfied, themselves and all their cattle and their beasts. Wherefore they gave thanks to God.

Chapter 21

And on the day after, when they were setting out thence, and in the hour in which they began their journey, Jesus turned to the palm, and said: This privilege I give thee, O palm tree, that one of thy branches be carried away by my angels, and planted in the paradise of my Father. And this blessing I will confer upon thee, that it shall be said of all who conquer in any contest, You have attained the palm of victory. And while He was thus speaking, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared, and stood upon the palm tree; and taking off one of its branches, flew to heaven with the branch in his hand. And when they saw this, they fell on their faces, and became as it were dead. And Jesus said to them: Why are your hearts possessed with fear? Do you not know that this palm, which I have caused to be transferred to paradise, shall be prepared for all the saints in the place of delights, as it has been prepared for us in this place of the wilderness? And they were filled with joy; and being strengthened, they all rose up.[/color]

This story was around St. Jeromes time. Its a 4th century Gnostic writing.

Pax Iesus
Paul.

[yiannii]

One of my mates is Muslim and when I was over at his place I spotted a picture of the BVM. I couldn't believe my eyes. They later explained that they respect Mary a lot.

[MorphRC]

Pax Iesus

I know of a tiny minority that have rosaries as well and Byzantine images of Mary, even though its against their religion. Seems Mary can get thru to anyone, no matter how violent the religion.

Pax Iesus
Paul.

[musturde]

Muslims should respect Mary but some are going too far. (which is a good thing :-D)

[justfran]

[quote name='Isidore' date='Apr 25 2004, 10:04 PM']
Ultimately it comes down to humans, and their own interpretations, or actions. The Muslims tell their children to fear us, and we tell our children to fear them. How will we ever come together? How will we ever fix our problems, if we are afraid? If we cannot learn and teach at the same time.

[i][b]If there is only one God, and he has revealed himself in Jesus Christ, why has he allowed so many religions? The Holy Father was asked this question by Italian journalist Vittorio Messori in the book "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" (Alfred A. Knopf, 1994).

John Paul II replied that "we should be amazed at the number of common elements found within them." Christ came into the world for all peoples, the Pope says. "He redeemed them all and has His own ways of reaching each of them in the present eschatological phase of salvation history."

...

Nevertheless, the religiosity of Muslims deserves respect. The image of believers in Allah who, without caring about time or place, fall to their knees and immerse themselves in prayer remains a model for all, in particular for those Christians who, having deserted their magnificent cathedrals, pray only a little or not at all. [/b][/i]

The Holy Father is on to something here. I took his words seriously, and I would hope every other Catholic does the same. Just because they have some serious theological imperfections in their doctrine does not mean we should hate or ignore them. We will however have to understand that we will probably never convert them to Catholicism, or Christianity. I ask why should we even try? We can teach them through our actions, through mutual respect, through our love for all of God's children, no matter their religion.

Have you ever wondered why there are only three religions that worship the God of Abrahm? There also is a Trinity in Christianity, and the three person Godhead in Jewish belief? Why are these three religions so close, but still so far apart?

Why does the news media continue to make it a point to call the Jewish and Christian God simply God, but calls the Muslim God Allah? We all believe in the God revealed to us in the Torah, don't we? The God of Abraham, the God of Moses, and yes the God of Jesus. Maybe there is some reason we must all be at odds with one another. Maybe it is just more evil at work. What was God's plan with these three religions? These are the questions I want to know the answers to.

Christianity, and more precisely Catholic Christianity, in my oppinion is the fullest revelation of God's devine plan for us. There must be some benefit in having three religions devoted to the same God. I want to know what it is.

Maybe God wants us to see the utter devotion to the Law that the Jewish religion follows, and the complete submission of the Muslim religion to God, and the Love for all that is taught through Christianity. Maybe that is the whole point. We all, every human being needs to be full in our faith. Complete understanding and devotion to God, complete and full understanding of the Law, and also complete and uncompromising love for all of God's children. Wow, another Trinity thing there.

We as Christians should be weary of losing our faith, but we should not be afraid of learning. The gifts of the Holy Spirit include knowledge, and wisdom. We should use these to understand our differences, and find ways to come together. [/quote]
You have no idea how deeply thankful I am to the Holy Father for supporting my view...

My way of answering the question as to why there are so many religions:

Scenario: It's a beautiful day, the sun is beaming down on all the happy people. One of them says "Some Big Guy must have let us have this because we did something good."
Christian/Jewish answer: It's from God.
Muslim answer: It's from Allah.
Buddhist answer: It's from Buddha.
Hindu answer: It's from Krishna.
etc etc
It's all to do with perspective. God could be called ckjayt4976faintiyfg and He'd still be the same God. (Maybe all the debate begins with the naming, who knows???) It's just that different people have different ideas on what's "good" and what's "bad", and it reflects in what they believe.
For example: In the Old Testament (and for Jews, Muslims and some Christians today, I think) eating anything from pigs is considered to be unclean. That's because pigs don't sweat (they roll in mud to keep cool), and so all the toxins created by the heat of the desert sun stay in the flesh. If you ate it, you could get really sick. And Moses wanted to keep his ragtag band of Jews alive and in one piece, so of course, these rules would have definitely been needed. (If you're one of these people who still abstain from pork, I mean absolutely no disregard.)

Edited June 7, 2004 by justfran

[MorphRC]

Pax Iesus.

Is JPII saying that God founded parts of every religion, as a common platform?

Now God, is a God of confusion!??

The only religions created by God, is Judaism, and Christianity. NONE OTHERS!!

However some may have been made to get closer to God, does Islam fall into this category?..LOL When Hell freezes over.