The Prodigal Son

[ICTHUS]

Okay, so the following is a dialogue that I've been having on CGR with an ex-catholic who is in 'bible college', and I've been blowing him out of the water on pretty much everything he says....except for this. I'll post the pertinent parts of the dialogue in sequential order. My responses are in blue. His are in green, and the question that prompted our current line of discussion is in red. I apologize for not posting more of the context of the discussion, but I didn't feel it was relevant.

[color=RED]Also, what must I do to be saved? Or to have assurence of my salvation?[/color]

[color=BLUE]1. What must I do to be saved?

This is taken from [url="http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/heaven.htm"]http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/heaven.htm[/url]. It is "a short Catholic creed on salvation" and all of the quotes therein are based on the Bible. You might find it interesting.

Salvation is received by us sinners (Rom 5:8), who "confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead" (Rom 10:9) while we "bear fruits that befit repentance" (Luke 3:8, 1 John 1:6-9). This salvation is "by grace . . . through faith; and . . . not because of works" (Eph 2:8-9, Rom 4:4-5; 5:10; 11:6, Gal 3:11; 1 Cor 13:2). In this gift all our sins are forgiven (1 John 1:6-9, 2 Pet 1:9), we are made into a new creation (2 Cor 5:17), we become adopted children of God (Rom 8:23, John 1:12, 1 John 3:1;5:1), and are promised a heavenly inheritance (Mat 19:29, Heb 9:15). We receive all this upon being born again through baptism in water and Spirit (John 3:5, Titus 3:5, Acts 2:37-38; 22:16, 1 Cor 6:11, Eph 5:26, 1 Peter 1:23, Ezek 36:25-26, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:3-7, Gal 3:24-27, Col 2:10-13).

Now having such a great salvation, we must keep communion with Jesus through faith, works of love (Gal 5:6, 1 Thess 5:15, Eph 2:10), and uniting with Him in Holy Communion (Mat 26:26-29, John 15:4; 6:53-56). The good works we do are not from ourselves, but are given to us by God (Philip 2:13, John 15:5, 1 Cor 15:10) and preserve or increase the righteousness given to us as a gift (Mat 25:14-30, Rom 6:16, Rev 19:7-8, Jas 2:14-26). We are also charged to "lead a life worthy" of God and the Gospel (1 Thess 2:12, Col 1:10, Philip 1:27) "knowing that from the Lord [we] will receive the inheritance as [our] reward" (Col 3:23-24, Rom 2:6-7, Mat 5:7-12; 25:34-36, Luke 6:35; 18:18-23, Gal 6:8-9). Thus we "strive for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12:14, 2 Cor 7:1, Mat 5:8). But "if any one does sin," we repent, confessing our sins to God's Ministers of Reconciliation (2 Cor 5:19-20, Jas 5:14-16, John 20:22-22, 2 Cor 2:10), and are consoled: "we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 1:9-2:1, Rev 2:5).

This Gospel of salvation, because of its grace, invites us to humbly confess: "We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty" (Luke 17:10). Yet it permits the hope (Rom 5:2-5) that Christ will say "Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master" (Mat 25:21).

2. What about assurance of salvation?

In a sense, yes, you do have assurance of your salvation, but not in the sense that contemporary evangelicalism often means 'assurance'. Allow me to explain.

The Catholic knows that he can lose his salvation by mortal sin. But he also knows that these are not sins that a man who is living the Christian lifestyle is likely to commit. These are the 'works of the flesh' spoken of by St. Paul, and the Christian is called to live his life not under the Law, which leads to death through knowledge of sin, but in the Spirit of God, the fruits of which are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.

Galatians 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Thus, he knows that there is a real danger of falling into sin, because St. Paul warns the Galatians (Galatians 5 & 6) and the Romans (Romans 7), as well as the other churches, about the works of the flesh. But, he knows that Gods mercy is there for him. He knows that apart from Gods grace, it is impossible to keep the commandments (St. Augustine, one of the most famous doctors of the Church, put that question to rest in the 5th Century with the Pelagian contraversy), but He knows that in Christ, he can do it.

So, you ask, does the Catholic have the assurance of salvation? I answer, yes, he does. He has the assurance that God loves him and desires his salvation, and that no matter how hard he is tempted by the Devil, God gives him sufficent grace to resist.

But he knows that he can knowingly and purposefully reject that grace, and in so doing fall from grace.

To sum up, therefore, the Catholic has assurance of his salvation not in the brazen, license-to-sin sense that Luther intended when he said the following, in one of his letters, entitled "Let Your Sins Be Strong" to his partner-in-crime, Phillip Melanchthon,

Martin Luther said:
If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins?Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

Rather, the Catholic has assurance of his salvation in that he trusts God, that God, "who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6), and that God desires that no man should be lost, and thus pours out abundant graces on us in order that we may be saved. (Case and point - the Sacraments, which are visible signs that God is giving us invisible graces)[/color]

[color=GREEN]"and are promised a heavenly inheritance (Mat 19:29, Heb 9:15)"

This is straight from your quote, ryan, of what happens when 'salvation is recieved'. We are PROMISED a heavenly inheritance. To say that God would save us and then let us go (or even that we could run from him, when we commit a 'really bad sin') just doesn't make sense.[/color]

[color=BLUE]But it does, when you realise that the Promise in question is actually a Covenant, which is by definition an exchange of persons in a family bond - in this case, I become a member of Gods Family, and indwell within His Family, the Trinity. We can alienate ourselves from a family, if we choose. This is plainly evident even on human terms, and especially in the Parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. It is in this sense that we reject God's promise. I needn't (but I will) even mention the fact that ADAM did this, and look what happened to him!![/color]

[color=GREEN]Also, what do you think is the purpose of praying to God? Do you think you're gonna change His mind? That because you prayed (or got lots of people, or 'saints', or mary, or whoever) God is automatically gonna grant you your request? God knows waht was gonna happen waaaaaaaaaaay before you were around.
-shane[/color]

[color=BLUE]I can defeat your objection succinctly by throwing it right back at you. What is the purpose of asking a person on Earth to pray for you? I contend that it is to bring to fulfilment God's sovereign Plan for the Universe, which He predestined. (Lord help me, I sound more and more like a Calvinist everyday! ) Simply put, St. Paul commands us to pray for one another. Your objection is brought to nothing by this simple Biblical command.[/color]

[color=Green]God knows waht was gonna happen waaaaaaaaaaay before you were around. Praying is merely a way of keeping the lines open, so that we can have a deeper relationship with Him.[/color]

[color=Blue]I agree with the first part of this statement, but not the second. See above, RE: God's sovereign plan.[/color]

[color=GREEN]prodigal son. He ran off, did a lot of stupid stuff. But guess what, he was still his Father's son!! No matter what stupid stuff he did he could not get out of that. He even came back and said that he wasn't worthy but his father would hear nothing of it. He was and always will be his son. You cannot get out of God's family once you've been put in, no matter what you do. You can disgrace it. You can choose not to associate yourself with it but you're still a part of it. You're a blood relative to your father. Well, i'm a blood relative to My Father, through Christ. Nothing can change that.
-shane[/color]

Now, here's where I'm stumped. Did the Prodigal Son relinquish his sonship when he left the Fathers house? Here's the response I was preparing to submit to him, but I want you folks' input first.

[color=PURPLE]No, he was not still his Fathers Son. Under the Hebrew custom of the time, asking for your fathers inheritance at any time other than when he was dead was tantamount to saying "I wish you were dead!" In asking for his inheritance early and leaving the Covenant of his household, he was, in effect, relinquishing his sonship. If this were not the case, he would have been confident in his ability to remain the Father's Son, even after his sin. Instead, what did he do? He pleaded to be admitted as a hired servant, but the Father instead gave him back his full rights as a son.[/color]

[Brother Adam]

Once we are sealed with baptism, we become adopted sons of God in the New Covenant. While we can revoke this sonship, we remain sealed. This is why Catholics don't rebaptize someone if they at one point commit a mortal sin.

If I choose, I can tell the curator of my fathers estate I'm not interested in my inheritance. But none-the-less, I remain his son.

[Carson Weber]

First, I would tell your friend that prayer does have effects because a part of God's determinate will is his conditional will, wherein God has willed that a particular portion of God's actions are conditional upon whether we ask in prayer or not. Some Christians do not understand that God has a conditional will that includes our free willing and God's free responding according to his greater will.

Second, note what the Father said when the son returned about how the son has returned from death to life. Salvation is living in a status of covenant sonship with God wherein we are within his family. While, after we have been baptized, we can lose this status of sonship and take upon a servile status, servile to sin outside of the Covenant Family, we are always beckoned by the Father to return to life through reconciliation with him.

You must stress the "death" in the Parable. A son who is "dead" spiritually isn't just "not in a hunky dory fellowship with God but still saved". He's dead. He's committed a [b]deadly[/b] or [b]mortal[/b] sin and he must come to life again through the sacrament of reconciliation.

The parable is actually used by Jesus (in its literal-historical context) to bespeak of the 10 Northern Tribes (the Prodigal Son) and the remaining tribes of Judah who remained faithful to God's covenant with the line of Judah (the older brother). Through the ministry of Jesus (the Davidic King), he beckons for the 10 northern tribes to return to covenant fellowship with God by being brought into the Church, and this can only happen by admitting the Gentiles and Samaritans because the 10 Northern Tribes were assimilated among the Gentiles circa 722 B.C. by Assyria (and the Samaritans were those Israelites of the Northern Kingdom who were left in the land and were intermarried with Gentiles placed there by Assyria in 2 Kings 17:24). This is St. Paul's point in Romans 11:25.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]If I choose, I can tell the curator of my fathers estate I'm not interested in my inheritance. But none-the-less, I remain his son.[/quote]

That's a good metaphor, do you mind if I use that?

[DojoGrant]

I am in agreement with Brother Adam. The prodigal son never ceased to be the son of his father, but he was not restored until he chose to return home. The father did not go out and seek him and bring him home. What we instead see is an admission of guilt and remorse and returning to the father, which leads to restoration.

Had the son never returned, he would have died away from the father.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 27 2004, 10:47 PM']
That's a good metaphor, do you mind if I use that? [/quote]
Yes you may.

[CatholicCrusader]

That metaphor seems misleading. It seems as though you are stating if you are baptised, then you are Catholic, regardless as to whether or not you commit a schismatic or an heretical act. Granted, that is in interesting metaphor; however, that does not hold in regards to the Church. Once one commits a formal heretical or schismatic act, he is removed by the Church (via excommunication), and is, therefore, no longer a member of the Church. One would need to be reinstated by the rescinding of the excommunication (or, if not formally excommunicated, through the return to the only True Church by which we can be saved, the adherence to all Her doctines, and the reception of the Sacrament of Penance).
God bless.

[Brother Adam]

All those who are invincibly ignorance (such as those indoctirnated to believe the Catholic Church is wrong) or those searching for truth are viewed as Baptized Christians and members of the Catholic Church.

In fact, all baptized Christians are considered part of the Catholic Church.

Those that accept the Catholic Church is the one true Church and yet reject it are in "mortal sin".

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
3/29 - Fifth Monday of Lent

CatholicCrusader,

I'm not certain if you can ever LEAVE the Catholic Church because of the ontological mark of baptism. You can disagree, you can stop support of the Church, you can incur excommunication, &c., but all these things simply cut you off from the graces provided to the sons and daughters of the Church. Kinda like the priesthood - once a priest, always a priest, even if you "leave" the priesthood.