Ivri Haza Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 [quote name='Maggie' post='1882892' date='Jun 4 2009, 11:10 AM']I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God! And I know that the Muslims deny he is God. All religions except Christianity do that. I am a Catholic and I agree with the Church's attitude toward Islam. [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html"]DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONSNOSTRA AETATE[/url] By the way, have you actually read the Koran yourself?[/quote] the church doesn;t say dont discuss about islam, dont discuss about the bad things in islam. but ***you*** say that. you are not in line with the church, maggie. + ivri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivri Haza Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 [quote name='Maggie' post='1882324' date='Jun 3 2009, 07:41 PM']Pete, you need to take a deep breath and do some more in-depth research on this topic. I know that there are website which provide long lists of "facts" about Islam, including cherry-picked quotes from the Koran, but these don't tell the whole story. Look deeper and think for yourself![/quote] why is it your duty to defend islam ona catholic board and you say you are catholic?" why it is personal offense to you when someone speaks even one bad thing about muslims or islam? why so important to you maggie? + ivri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivri Haza Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1881980' date='Jun 3 2009, 12:28 PM']You gave him more of a time of day than I would have.[/quote] because he ignored you. you dont like being ignored becuase you cant fight when you are being ignored. fighting is what you like,,,,i saw this in the wafa sultan thread. you make trouble all over message board. + ivri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivri Haza Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1881977' date='Jun 3 2009, 12:25 PM']Peter, I refuse to even respond to you anymore. You obviously didn't read my post, I'm doing you the same honor. Unless you actually read about Islam yourself, not the anti-Islamic sites and videoclips you keep posting, I'm not responding to your bigotry. Edit: your news sites don't help either. They don't prove anything. The religion isn't always the cause, you simplify things too easily, you haven't thought about the politics in each situation. Even in cases of extremism, you're generalizing a whole people with random news stories. This is just what my cousins did to me when I was in Lebanon. They gave me news stories about Americans doing idiotic things and claimed all Americans must be stupid. You are not only in these same lines, you are worse. You're not claiming that a whole people is "stupid", no. You are labeling a whole people as extremists.[/quote] you do agree there are muslims who are extremists dont you? but you dont allow anyone to even discuss about ***those*** extremists that we can all agree that exist. you dont want to see anything bad about muslims or islam at all, even though you claim you agree there are some bad things, you become angry when they are discussed. i told you first time i replied to you that i question your intentions, that your intentions are not honest. i was right. after that you began personal insults to me. you see, i am being more careful about english writing today [becuase yes i can be lazy] because i know you like to pick all kinds of things to use against someone to keep them from discussing on things you dont like, like what country are they from, your cousins in lebanon and how good their english is, why is your english no as good as teenage cousins, saying im not where i say im from, saying you were testing me [you thought i wouldn't know the word "habibi", are you serious?], saying i have probably never been to middle east [that is same as calling me liar], and all kinds of personal attacks not relate to the topic. becuase you are a bully. now you do the same to pete. you are something! + ivri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 [quote name='Ivri Haza' post='1882894' date='Jun 4 2009, 11:14 AM']you are on catholic message board telling catholics not to speak about islam. what is wrong with you?[/quote] I think you are confused? Nobody has a problem with Catholics speaking about Islam. The problem arises when the conversation is at a simplistic level. [quote name='Ivri Haza' post='1882898' date='Jun 4 2009, 11:18 AM']the church doesn;t say dont discuss about islam, dont discuss about the bad things in islam. but ***you*** say that. you are not in line with the church, maggie. + ivri[/quote] No actually on this I am totally in line with the Church. I absolutely DO NOT have a problem with people discussing the bad things in Islam. Discussion is how the bad things will be resolved. I DO have a problem with arguments made out of ignorance. In my experience, people who post long lists of quotes from the suras or the Koran did not compile the list themselves from actually reading a copy of the Koran. The same verses are used over and over again which suggests the lists were all copied and pasted from the same website. Fundamentalists do this to Catholics all the time and I can't stand it. If people are going to form a negative opinion about something they should do their own reading and interact with the [i]source [/i]material, not other people's YouTube videos! I swear that YouTube has done more to destroy critical thinking skills in my generation than the public education system. If you do your own reading with the [i]source [/i]material you might come to some surprising conclusions! [quote name='Ivri Haza' post='1882899' date='Jun 4 2009, 11:19 AM']why is it your duty to defend islam ona catholic board and you say you are catholic?" why it is personal offense to you when someone speaks even one bad thing about muslims or islam? why so important to you maggie? + ivri[/quote] Yes I am a Catholic, and it is not my intention to defend Islam, period. It's not a personal offense, but I don't like seeing complex religious movements reduced to a "dangerous death cult" which is what Pete called it. That's ignorant plain and simple and no well-catechized Catholic would say such a thing. In fact I am kind of getting angry about it, that's how irritating it is to me, so as I got out of the other thread I'm going to get out of this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 [quote name='Ivri Haza' post='1882905' date='Jun 4 2009, 10:27 AM']you do agree there are muslims who are extremists dont you? but you dont allow anyone to even discuss about ***those*** extremists that we can all agree that exist. + ivri[/quote] Extremists exist in every religion. I don't understand why people like to bash this certain one so much though. Ivri, perhaps when you meet an Anti-Catholic, you'll begin to understand why we're doing this. [quote]you dont want to see anything bad about muslims or islam at all, even though you claim you agree there are some bad things, you become angry when they are discussed. i told you first time i replied to you that i question your intentions, that your intentions are not honest.[/quote] You caught me. I'm being paid to do this. [quote]i was right. after that you began personal insults to me. you see, i am being more careful about english writing today [becuase yes i can be lazy] because i know you like to pick all kinds of things to use against someone to keep them from discussing on things you dont like, like what country are they from, your cousins in lebanon and how good their english is, why is your english no as good as teenage cousins, saying im not where i say im from, saying you were testing me [you thought i wouldn't know the word "habibi", are you serious?][/quote] My "test" was not that simple . I was just saying Habibi to make the conversation run smoother. My test was throwing out the FPM and the LF. But I was wrong, it wasn't even a test but a rebbuttal to one of your arguments. It just served as a test once you didn't answer. [quote], saying i have probably never been to middle east [that is same as calling me liar], and all kinds of personal attacks not relate to the topic. becuase you are a bully. now you do the same to pete. you are something![/quote] I apologized about going out of line with some of my points. I just expected a Lebanese to be more open minded about the subject. However, now I'm not sure what you are since you refuse to tell us. But I will not apologize for being a "bully" on this thread. Responding is not "bullying". You're the one taking us off topic now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 [quote name='Ivri Haza' post='1882900' date='Jun 4 2009, 09:21 AM']because he ignored you. you dont like being ignored becuase you cant fight when you are being ignored. fighting is what you like,,,,i saw this in the wafa sultan thread. you make trouble all over message board. + ivri[/quote] I have not posted any messages to this individual. That would make the validity of your theory suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Ivri Haza' post='1882895' date='Jun 4 2009, 10:17 AM']why should he read your post? you are a man who tells others you dont have time to look at videos [even when the links arent always videos,,,this shows you don't click the links at all] so why are you offended someone shows you the same lack of respect? you get what you give, habibi. + ivri[/quote] Ivri, I've explained this. I don't like it when people let websites or videos argue for them. From now on I'm not responding to your comments unless they're actual arguments. I've decided to stop playing this game, you should join. Edited June 4, 2009 by musturde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1882980' date='Jun 4 2009, 11:58 AM']Ivri, I've explained this. I don't like it when people let websites or videos argue for them. From now on I'm not responding to your comments unless they're actual arguments. I've decided to stop playing this game, you should join.[/quote] I think that would be a good idea for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivri Haza Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1882980' date='Jun 4 2009, 12:58 PM']Ivri, I've explained this. I don't like it when people let websites or videos argue for them. From now on I'm not responding to your comments unless they're actual arguments. I've decided to stop playing this game, you should join.[/quote] there is no game but you sound like defeated man. you tube and links are valid ways to share information, exchange examples of ideas, and more ways. you know this, are only saying these silly thngs because you dont want responsibility to acknowldge them, after lies and attacks didn't work for you either. its okay, i understand. i will not bother you anymore, brother. i am not a person with no compassion,,,i know to be defeated must feel uncomfortable and the exit is the best plan. peace and salam, brother. + ivri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivri Haza Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 [quote name='Maggie' post='1882913' date='Jun 4 2009, 11:55 AM']I think you are confused? Nobody has a problem with Catholics speaking about Islam. The problem arises when the conversation is at a simplistic level.[/quote] it was no simplistic level. it was no level any kind. it was topic of women's treatment in islam. very simple! [quote]I absolutely DO NOT have a problem with people discussing the bad things in Islam.[/quote] as you spend 14 pages in wafa sultan thread trying to stop hischildforever from discussng on bad things in islam. so angry you try to discuss about christians [your own religion!!!] and jews and others. i asked before, i ask again maggie,,,if you have rotten apple and i have rotten apple is your apple less rotten because mine is rotten too? i ask you many many things you dont respond, so... + ivri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteWaldo Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Maggie' post='1882892' date='Jun 4 2009, 10:10 AM']What do you mean "facts"? This is Mohammed's book we are talking about. Cherry picked? While there is no shortage of nonsense and abrogated verses in the Quran, please show me where you have learned that denial of the Son of God isn't central to their faith. Indeed the most important fundamental. Let's start here. Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! Do you find something ambiguous about that? Are you aware that the greatest sin in Islam "shirk" is committed if a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God? The only unpardonable sin. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, or do you agree with the Mohammedans that is "a thing most monstrous"? I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God! And I know that the Muslims deny he is God.[/quote] Muslims deny that Jesus is God [b]as well as denying that Jesus the the Son of God.[/b] That makes Mohammedans [b]specifically antichrist[/b]: 1Jo 2:22[color="#0000FF"] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:[/color] [quote name='Maggie' post='1882892' date='Jun 4 2009, 10:10 AM']All religions except Christianity do that.[/quote] Jews look for their promised Son: Isa 9:6 [color="#0000FF"]For unto us a child is born, unto us [b]a son is given[/b]: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, [b]The mighty God, The everlasting Father[/b], The Prince of Peace. [/color] I believe Jesus has always been their mediator, though some don't yet recognize Jesus as their promised Son. Rom 11:8 [color="#0000FF"](According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.[/color] [quote name='Maggie' post='1882892' date='Jun 4 2009, 10:10 AM']I am a Catholic and I agree with the Church's attitude toward Islam. QUOTE 3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself;[/quote] How does that square with scripture? 23 [b]Whosoever denieth the Son, the same [b]hath not the Father:[/b][/b] [quote name='Maggie' post='1882892' date='Jun 4 2009, 10:10 AM']merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead.[/quote] The most important fundamental in Islam necessitates denying the Son of God. Who will be our judge? Jhn 5:22 [b]For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: [/b] The very Son of God that they vehemently deny with all their mind and heart. The ONLY begotten Son of God. A "thing most monstrous" to them. [quote name='Maggie' post='1882892' date='Jun 4 2009, 10:10 AM']Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONSNOSTRA AETATE By the way, have you actually read the Koran yourself?[/quote] Much of it. But it is so preposterously disjointed, absent chronology and mind numbingly repetitive that it's hard not to be put to sleep. Stories begin in the middle or end with no beginning etc. One of my favorite suras details Mohammedan heaven: Sura 56:15 (They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), 20 And with fruits, any that they may select: 17 Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), 18 With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains 21 And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. A chicken in every pot! 22 And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- 30 In shade long-extended, 31 By water flowing constantly, 32 And fruit in abundance. 34 And on Thrones (of Dignity), raised high. 35 We have created (their Companions) of special creation. 36 And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), - 37 Beloved (by nature), equal in age,- And perhaps to go with those virgins: Surah 83:25 Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed: The following verse should be a relief for those that prefer natural fibers: Surah 76:12 And because they were patient and constant, He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk. It would seem Mohammed's heaven is composed considerably of the things that his desert environment lacked the most, with the addition of servant boys, and multiple virgin partners. Conspicuously made of the things of this world, that Satan tempts men with to make them [b][size=4]of[/size][/b] this world, and outside the kingdom of God. Gold, precious stones, silver goblets, and assigned "dignity". Even wine, of which Mohammed prohibited this life perhaps to keep his army in shape, but rivers of it promised in heaven. Please read surah 56 for yourself in 3 translations at the following link. Mohammed has even more fun with the alternating descriptions of his hell, reserved for kafir polytheists like Roman Catholics and the rest of Christianity. I don't make this stuff up: [url="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/"]http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...s/muslim/quran/[/url] Do the women get virgins too? Islam - always the PERFECT OPPOSITE: [url="http://brotherpete.com/islam_is_the_opposite.htm"]http://brotherpete.com/islam_is_the_opposite.htm[/url] Romans 14:17 [color="#0000FF"]For the kingdom of God [b][size=4]is not[/size][/b] meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [/color] Edited June 4, 2009 by PeteWaldo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteWaldo Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) There seems to be some speculation about the web sources I post in here which have largely been my own. I published the following websites over the last few years. The first "behold the beast" explaining Islam in bible prophecy that includes 2 online books copy and pasted there with permission of the publisher. [url="http://www.beholdthebeast.com/"]http://www.beholdthebeast.com/[/url] Second in an effort to make this message more church friendly. [url="http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/"]http://www.israelinbibleprophecy.com/[/url] Then as I increasingly moved toward bringing the Gospel to Muslims a site to introduce them to the Word of God. [url="http://www.islamandthetruth.com/"]http://www.islamandthetruth.com/[/url] More recently a site to make a more universal message, that I would have thought, the whole of the church could receive, which also includes material that I have learned from Muslims, though they would hate to think of themselves as my teachers! [url="http://brotherpete.com/"]http://brotherpete.com/[/url] Also a couple of YouTube channels at which I am constantly bombarded with videos by Christians and Muslims, a few of which I have shared here. Hope that helped. Edited June 4, 2009 by PeteWaldo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteWaldo Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) Surah 56:51 "Then will ye truly,- O ye that go wrong, and treat (Truth) as Falsehood!- IE Christians who don't deny the Son of God along with Mohammedans. 52 "Ye will surely taste of the Tree of Zaqqum. 53 "Then will ye fill your insides therewith, 54 "And drink Boiling Water on top of it: 55 "Indeed ye shall drink like diseased camels raging with thirst!" 56 Such will be their entertainment on the Day of Requital! Does that strike anyone as being perhaps just a teensy bit like something that might spring from the overactive, child-like imagination, of a 7th desert dwelling illiterate? [url="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/056.qmt.html"]http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...an/056.qmt.html[/url] Edited June 4, 2009 by PeteWaldo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 [quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1883294' date='Jun 4 2009, 04:47 PM']Surah 56:51 "Then will ye truly,- O ye that go wrong, and treat (Truth) as Falsehood!- IE Christians who don't deny the Son of God along with Mohammedans. 52 "Ye will surely taste of the Tree of Zaqqum. 53 "Then will ye fill your insides therewith, 54 "And drink Boiling Water on top of it: 55 "Indeed ye shall drink like diseased camels raging with thirst!" 56 Such will be their entertainment on the Day of Requital! Does that strike anyone as being perhaps just a teensy bit like something that might spring from the overactive, child-like imagination, of a 7th desert dwelling illiterate? [url="http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/056.qmt.html"]http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...an/056.qmt.html[/url][/quote] May well be. Of course a simmilar characterization could be given of a good chunk of the Old Testament. I guess I'm saying that individuals in glass houses shouldn"t throw stones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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