Resurrexi Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 ...well, if hitler ran an abortion clinic... then no... but seeing that killing him might have ended the war and saved lives, then yes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 One of my friends actually wrote her term paper in our Just War Theory class on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 What was her conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 not familiar with the movie, but the three fonts of morality would have to be applied to the act: 1. intention: the intended end or purpose 2. the act itself: the act itself, within its inherent moral meaning. This inherent moral meaning is determined by the moral object of the act. 3. circumstance (or consquences) good consequences must outweigh the bad. if one of the three is bad the overall act is immoral. The intention would have been good, namely kill Hitler as an aid in ending his dictatorship, ending the war, saving lives, and countries and resources. Killing one is not intrinsically evil, so the act defaults to the third font. It would not be murder, since it would be an act of war and Hitler's life would be forfeit for his serious crimes. The good consequences would have to outweigh the bad. This is where research would have to come in. Without doing the research I infer that yes the good consequences would have outweighed the bad, since I am guessing a considerable amount of confusion and upheavel would have ensued in the Nazi Party, military, etc. This is just initial though, I dont know all the details surrounding the actual historical event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) I just thought too some other problems affecting the morality of the plot would be lying. I'm not sure if they had to lie or decieve in order to accomplish the plot, perhaps they could have resorted to mental reservation with a good intent and good consequences. it is a pretty complex moral act. I would need all the circumstances and some time to study it. Edited June 2, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Well, would it be murder? He was not quite an innocent man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1880656' date='Jun 1 2009, 09:42 PM']Well, would it be murder? He was not quite an innocent man...[/quote] But was Dr. T. innocent either? Edited June 2, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) It would be murder if German law defined it as murder... But I do concur that it would have been definitely possible to do it in a morally acceptable way. What really happen I don't for sure know. Col. Stauffenberg is a hero though.. Edited June 2, 2009 by Didymus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1880654' date='Jun 1 2009, 09:41 PM']I just thought too some other problems affecting the morality of the plot would be lying. I'm not sure if they had to lie or decieve in order to accomplish the plot, perhaps they could have resorted to mental reservation with a good intent and good consequences. it is a pretty complex moral act. I would need all the circumstances and some time to study it.[/quote] I'm thinking out loud at this point (I like moral case studies). The acts leading up to the actual killing of hitler would be seperate moral acts. So they would need to be judged seperately. It would be an interesting study to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 [quote name='Didymus' post='1880663' date='Jun 1 2009, 09:49 PM']It would be murder if German law defined it as murder... But I do concur that it would have been definitely possible to do it in a morally acceptable way. What really happen I don't for sure know. Col. Stauffenberg is a hero though..[/quote] Murder in civil law and murder in moral theology aren't always the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1880656' date='Jun 1 2009, 09:42 PM']Well, would it be murder? He was not quite an innocent man...[/quote] no. I think it would be defined as killing as an act of civil war, which is not intrinsically evil. [quote name='Didymus' post='1880663' date='Jun 1 2009, 09:49 PM']It would be murder if German law defined it as murder...[/quote] no, I disagree, eternal moral law is above and beyond civil law. I think it would be just killing, not unjust killing otherwise known as murder. Edited June 2, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1880662' date='Jun 1 2009, 09:47 PM']But was Dr. T. innocent either?[/quote] I'm curious what you mean here? previous innoncence or guilt doesnt affect the morality of a whole new act. A man might be guilty of a previous crime, but that doesnt affect him from performing a whole new moral act. If one had to lie and decieve in order to get him to the position of actually killing Hitler, then he should have refrained from putting himself in such a position in the first place, since means do not justify ends. So if they intended to kill Hitler, but within that intention also intended to lie and decieve in order to put them in a position to kill him, then the first font of the act would be bad, thus making the overall act of assasination immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='kafka' post='1880687' date='Jun 1 2009, 10:07 PM']I'm curious what you mean here?[/quote] It was a response to SSM's statement that "Hitler wasn't exactly innocent". I was questioning his logic. Edited June 2, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) of course it was morally justified. just like it's morally justified that dr. tiller was assassinated. the only reason people vote and/or think differently, is cause they follow social convention. even to the point that it makes no sense. im sure folks had similar arguments, for why hitler shouldn't have been assassinated, too, as do those against tiller's death. hitler = bad and you can kill him, just like osama, even though you're breaking the law. tiller = not killable, cause that means you're breaking the law (but moreso, it involves rocking the boat, fessing up to cowardice, taking an unpopular stand etc). sometimes, laws are to be broken-- these 'dont break the law' ideas are sorely misplaced. if not now, then when? does it have to be a stereotypical genocide or country or terrorist invading us? do we have to have that much artifiality in our premises? ya ever get deep into pokin holes in social norms, and notice how contradictory society and people are, even to any objective thinking person? i know in this case most wouldn't agree with me, but that's what i see transpiring here too, but for situations much more serious than petty 'customs' and stuff. Edited June 2, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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