The Holy Land

[Innocent]

[quote name='kafka' post='1879986' date='Jun 1 2009, 10:44 AM']In any case Sacred Scripture reveals things about the future which are even more astonishing than fiction.[/quote]

Do you have any tips about reading the books of the OT Prophets? (In my Bible reading I'm currently at the end of Ezekiel.) I've found some beautiful passages of personal relevance in all the books of Prophets (for example, about sincere repentance and humility, etc.) but in some other areas I'm completely unable to find anything that would help me in my personal spiritual life. (e.g., The passages describing the idealised Temple at the end of the book of Ezekiel.)

Perhaps I should just let it go for now, and hope that if God wishes me to learn something through those passages, he will permit my mind to grasp in in the appropriate time?

[kafka]

[quote name='Innocent' post='1880035' date='Jun 1 2009, 12:49 AM']Do you have any tips about reading the books of the OT Prophets? (In my Bible reading I'm currently at the end of Ezekiel.) I've found some beautiful passages of personal relevance in all the books of Prophets (for example, about sincere repentance and humility, etc.) but in some other areas I'm completely unable to find anything that would help me in my personal spiritual life. (e.g., The passages describing the idealised Temple at the end of the book of Ezekiel.)

Perhaps I should just let it go for now, and hope that if God wishes me to learn something through those passages, he will permit my mind to grasp in in the appropriate time?[/quote]
hmm. I mean what kind of tips are you looking for? Not every verse of the Prophets are for spiritual edification. Some specifically refer to future events, some refer to past events predicting the First Coming of Christ.

I dont know maybe quote a verse you are having problems with and I might be able to help. I admit I have spent a lot of time prayerfully reading the Prophets, but my understanding only goes so far. Some verses completely elude me.

[RandomProddy]

Is the New Isreal defined by geography?

[kafka]

Here is a passage from the Prophecy of Isaiah about Jerusalem and the Holy Land, which I believe refers to the first part of the Tribulation. 'Ariel' is a symbolic name for Jerusalem and perhaps in a looser sense the Holy Land. Also in the spiritual sense I think Ariel refers to the suffering of the Chruch during some events of the Tribulation:

[Isaiah 29]
{29:1} Woe to Ariel, to Ariel the city against which David fought: year has been added to year, the solemnities have unfolded.
{29:2} And I will surround Ariel with siege works, and it will be in sorrow and mourning, and it will be like Ariel to me.
{29:3} And I will surround you like a sphere all around you, and I will raise up a rampart against you, and I will set up fortifications to blockade you.
{29:4} You will be brought low. You will speak from the ground, and your eloquence will be heard from the dirt. And, from the ground, your voice will be like that of the python, and your eloquence will mumble from the dirt.
{29:5} And the multitude of those who fan you will be like fine dust. And the multitude of those who have prevailed against you will be like embers fading away.
{29:6} And this will happen suddenly and swiftly. It will be visited from the Lord of hosts with thunder and earthquakes, and with the great noise of a whirlwind and a storm, and with a flame of devouring fire.
{29:7} And the multitude of all the nations that have struggled against Ariel will be like the dream of a vision by night, along with all who have battled, and besieged, and prevailed against it.
{29:8} And it will be like one who is hungry and dreams of eating, but, when he has been awakened, his soul is empty. And it will be like one who is thirsty and dreams of drinking, but, after he has been awakened, he still languishes in thirst, and his soul is empty. So shall the multitude of all the nations be, who have struggled against Mount Zion.
{29:9} Be stupefied and in wonder! Shake and quiver! Be inebriated, but not from wine! Stagger, but not from drunkenness!

[kafka]

in that above passage, notice the change in verse 5. First, Jerusalem is put under siege. Then those who have put her under siege are destroyed.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='RandomProddy' post='1880161' date='Jun 1 2009, 06:47 AM']Is the New Isreal defined by geography?[/quote]

Was the Old Israel defined merely be geography?

[PeteWaldo]

I believe the Jews were restored to their land, and city, right on God's prophetic time table.

Daniel 10:1 [color="#0000FF"]In the [b]third year of Cyrus[/b] king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing [was] true, [b]but the time appointed [was] long[/b]: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.[/color]

Acceptable dating for the first year of Cyrus in Babylon is [url="http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu4ugBohHoDIBdHxXNyoA?p=first+year+cyrus+%22536%22+bc&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501&ei=UTF-8"]536 BC[/url] or the third year of Cyrus at [url="http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu64j2g9HXeYAZldXNyoA?p=third+year+cyrus+%22533+bc%22&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501"]533 BC[/url]

Toward the end of this prophecy we read:

Daniel 12:7 [color="#0000FF"]And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [b][it shall be] for a time, times, and an half[/b]; and when he [b]shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,[/b] all these [things] shall be finished.[/color]

Jews - both Messianic and non-Messianic - translation of the Hebrew idiom "time, times and an half" is somewhat different than most of us Christians may have been taught. Below is the above verse from a version of the Tanach:

Daniel 12:7 [color="#0000FF"]And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [b][two] times and a half,[/b] and when they [b]have ended shattering the strength of the holy people[/b], all these will end. [/color]

While Daniel's prophecies use this "times" idiom, the Old Testament never defines it. However, most Christians are familiar with the following verse from the New Testament:

2 Peter 3:8 [color="#0000FF"]But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.[/color]

The Greek word that is translated as "day" in the above verse is "hemera". This is an ambiguous word whose definition is determined by it's context.
In 3 other passages in the KJV it is translated as "time" (in 12 verses in the NASB).

From Strong's:
New Testament Greek Definition:
2250 [b]hemera[/b] {hay-mer'-ah}
from (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit,
akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle;
TDNT - 2:943,309; n f
AV - day 355, daily + 2596 15, [b]time 3[/b], not tr 2, misc 14; 389

So if the Lord had meant for a "time" to be as a thousand years:

2-1/2 "times" would be 2500 years. Then [b]2500 - 533BC = 1967[/b] The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, Jerusalem. [b]The end of the "shattering the strength of the holy people".[/b] In the Old Testament, as Daniel was writing, the Jews were the only "holy people".
Is this a one "time" wonder?

In another of Daniel's dreams we find:

Daniel 7:1 [color="#0000FF"]In the [b]first year of Belshazzar[/b] king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.[/color]

Acceptable dating for the first year of Belshazzar to be [url="http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geuylPZCZKPRkAddJXNyoA?p=first+year+belshazzar+%22552+bc%22&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501&fr2=sb-top&sao=1"]552[/url] - [url="http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu7djZCZKOs4AvKdXNyoA?p=first+year+belshazzar+%22553+bc%22&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501&fr2=sb-top&sao=1"]553BC[/url]

Later in this dream we read:

Daniel 7:25 [color="#0000FF"]And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.[/color]

[b]2500 - 552 = 1948[/b] The restoration of the Jews to the holy land, declaring an independent Israel. End of the Jews being given into his (their oppressors) hand and being scattered among the "wilderness" of the nations.



"His hand" being 'little horn" - from "Zondervan Handbook to the Holy Bible" - "Opposing God's people in different guises throughout history is the "little horn" (8, 20-21), until God finally removes its power."

[url="http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm"]http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical...of_prophecy.htm[/url]

[kafka]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1881797' date='Jun 3 2009, 08:11 AM']Toward the end of this prophecy we read:

Daniel 12:7 [color="#0000FF"]And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [b][it shall be] for a time, times, and an half[/b]; and when he [b]shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,[/b] all these [things] shall be finished.[/color]


2 Peter 3:8 [color="#0000FF"]But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.[/color]

In another of Daniel's dreams we find:

Daniel 7:1 [color="#0000FF"]In the [b]first year of Belshazzar[/b] king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.[/color]


Later in this dream we read:

Daniel 7:25 [color="#0000FF"]And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.[/color]

[b]2500 - 552 = 1948[/b] The restoration of the Jews to the holy land, declaring an independent Israel. End of the Jews being given into his (their oppressors) hand and being scattered among the "wilderness" of the nations.



"His hand" being 'little horn" - from "Zondervan Handbook to the Holy Bible" - "Opposing God's people in different guises throughout history is the "little horn" (8, 20-21), until God finally removes its power."[/quote]
since I've already invested in this thread I'd like to make a few comments about your post above.

I do think the establishment of Israel is a significant event predicted in the Bible, however I dont agree with the sort of shifting of numbers in Daniel to fit the year 1948. There is no sound reasoning behind how you or that sight you quoted came up with the year 1948. The event itself is significant and more important than the year.

Concerning Daniel 12:7 & 25 in my theological opinion the 'time, times and half a time' equates to 3.5 years and refers to the last half of Antichrist's seven year reign. The last half will be more severe in that he will set up the abomination of desolation which is a false eucharist in the Catholic Churches throughout the world as well as specifically killing Catholic Christians. The first half of Antichrist's seven year reign will be more focused on consolidating his rule over the world. The 'time, times and half, or 3.5 years of times is also found in the Book of Revelation, however it is described as 42 months and 1260 days.

Concerning 2 Peter 3:8 the thousand days is figurative, meaning God is beyond Time. He is Eternity so Time is as nothing to Him. I believe Saint Peter actually borrowed that from the Book of Psalms. Using the thousand years to calculate the year of the establishment of New Israel is absurd and has no relationship whatsover with what that verse of Peter is asserting.

And the 'little horn' you miscited Daniel chap 8 v 20, 21 does not mention 'little horn.'

'Little horn' is mentioned in other verses of Daniel and in my opinion refers to Antichrist.

Edited June 3, 2009 by kafka

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='kafka' post='1881998' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:40 AM']since I've already invested in this thread I'd like to make a few comments about your post above.

I do think the establishment of Israel is a significant event predicted in the Bible, however I dont agree with the sort of shifting of numbers in Daniel to fit the year 1948.[/quote]

What was "shifted"? Please be specific.

[quote name='kafka' post='1881998' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:40 AM']There is no sound reasoning behind how you or that sight[/quote]

my site

[quote name='kafka' post='1881998' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:40 AM']you quoted came up with the year 1948.[/quote]

Perhaps you mean it doesn't fit your doctrine. I see it as not only a miraculous fulfillment of prophecy, but a specific proof of God. How does Daniel's book close?

Daniel 12:4 [color="#0000FF"]But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.[/color]
God followed this up with a crystal clear statement of fact:
Daniel 12:9 [color="#0000FF"]And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.[/color]

I'd say that since the dates of 1948 and 1967 had to come to pass in order to prove the math, God put a pretty clever seal on the book of Daniel.

[quote name='kafka' post='1881998' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:40 AM']The event itself is significant and more important than the year.[/quote]

Indeed the restoration of the Jews to their land began in the early 19th century.
But I believe the specific time pin that Daniel gave us confirms we are in his "time of the end".

[quote name='kafka' post='1881998' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:40 AM']Concerning Daniel 12:7 & 25 in my theological opinion the 'time, times and half a time' equates to 3.5 years[/quote]

There's certainly no shortage of those that do. I held a doctrine that suggested this for a dozen or so years. But do you really think that 3.5 years in prophecy constitutes "...[color="#0000FF"]the time appointed [was] long[/color]."

[quote name='kafka' post='1881998' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:40 AM']and refers to the last half of Antichrist's seven year reign.[/quote]

Does the bible suggest a single antichrist?
[url="http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm"]http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm[/url]

I believe the doctrine of an individual antichrist obscures from Christians view the fact that there are 1.5 billion antichrists in Islam alone.

[quote name='kafka' post='1881998' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:40 AM']The last half will be more severe[/quote]

Perhaps this part of the perception of this being a future event blinds us to the 2 million slain in the Sudan alone. Perhaps a trip to the Sudan would help:

[img]http://www.beholdthebeast.com/0ce2cc90.jpg[/img]
[url="http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm"]http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm[/url]

[quote name='kafka' post='1881998' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:40 AM']in that he will set up the abomination of desolation[/quote]

What becomes desolated?
Luke 21:20 [color="#0000FF"]And when ye shall see JERUSALEM compassed with armies, then know that the DESOLATION THEREOF is nigh [/color]

[url="http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm"]http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm[/url]

[quote name='kafka' post='1881998' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:40 AM']which is a false eucharist in the Catholic Churches throughout the world as well as specifically killing Catholic Christians. The first half of Antichrist's seven year reign will be more focused on consolidating his rule over the world. The 'time, times and half, or 3.5 years of times is also found in the Book of Revelation, however it is described as 42 months and 1260 days.[/quote]

That does fit some doctrines.
Thieleman van Braght, wrote 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days, which reckoned according to prophetic language means as many years… let it be reckoned as it may, say we, as a very long period of time.'

Two hundred years later, Matthew Henry wrote "….if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained, this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect of when the end might be."

Isaac Newton - "three times or years and an half, or 42 months, or 1260 days: and in these Prophecies days are put for years."

[quote name='kafka' post='1881998' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:40 AM']Concerning 2 Peter 3:8 the thousand days is figurative, meaning God is beyond Time. He is Eternity so Time is as nothing to Him. I believe Saint Peter actually borrowed that from the Book of Psalms.

And the 'little horn' you miscited Daniel chap 8 v 20, 21 does not mention 'little horn.'

'Little horn' is mentioned in other verses of Daniel and in my opinion refers to Antichrist.[/quote]

You aren't alone, but consider it as a "type" as Zondervan's suggests. consider:

Dan 7:25 [color="#0000FF"]And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [/color]

[color="#0000FF"]he shall speak [great] words against the most High[/color]

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

[color="#0000FF"]and shall wear out the saints of the most High[/color]

1400 year slaughter and conquest of God's people

[color="#0000FF"]and think to change times [/color]

Muslims have their own calendar

[color="#0000FF"]and laws[/color]

Their sabbath is Friday.
Let alone replacing laws of sovereign states with reprobate sharia law.

[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=11&v=37&t=KJV#37"]http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b...37&t=KJV#37[/url]

Dan 11:37 [color="#0000FF"]Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. [/color]

[color="#0000FF"]Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers[/color]

Rejecting God for "Allah" and "revelations" from Satan.

[color="#0000FF"]nor the desire of women,[/color]

polytheists. concubines too, one day marriages, say I divorce you 3 times and it's done, women recrive 1/2 of the inheritance of their brothers.
Women caught in adultery stoned to death.
[url="http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#women"]http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#women[/url]

[color="#0000FF"]nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.[/color]

The Quran is inspired in part by satan and in part by a self-serving reprobate. Allah have him a "revelation" that he could have all the wives he wanted but only for Mohammed. Another "revelation" allowed him to steal his stepson's wife.

Dan 11:38 [color="#0000FF"]But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. [/color]

[color="#0000FF"]But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces:[/color]

That's Satan. Most important fundamental in Islam denying the Son of God.

[color="#0000FF"]and a god whom his fathers knew not [/color]

That would be his phony god "Allah"
Surah 9.30 The [b]Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah.[/b] That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. [b]Allah's curse be on them[/b]: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

etc. etc. etc.

[kafka]

why did you join this forum?

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='kafka' post='1882062' date='Jun 3 2009, 12:31 PM']why did you join this forum?[/quote]

Because many Christians are unaware of what the Quran teaches and Muslims believe.
I don't know about your neighborhood but in mine we even have bus billboards financed by CAIR that suggest Islam is just another Abrahamic faith.
That also suggest Abraham - Jesus - Mohammed, as though there were some equivalence with their false prophet.

If more Christians were informed, perhaps there would be a little more urgency in bringing these deluded folks the Gospel, because according to the Word of God, Islam is the perfect opposite. The only Gospel they generally receive is from their imams with a warning not to read the bible themselves. That's, of course, why the bible and other Christian materials are banned in Muslim countries.

Surah 4.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- [b]but they killed him not, nor crucified him,[/b] but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, [b]for of a surety they killed him not:[/b]-

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 [b]Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous![/b]

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? [b]He is antichrist, that denieth[/b] the Father and[b] the Son.[/b] 23 [b]Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:[/b] [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

I can't even recall how I originally happened on this board. While I chatted in Christian forums at quite some length, over the last year or two my time has been devoted to bringing the Gospel to Muslims.

Why do you ask? I would have thought my motivation was apparent from my initial post.