Resurrexi Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 God promised the Holy Land to the Chosen People in the Old Testament. The Church founded by Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the People of Israel. Therefore, the Holy Land should rightfully be ruled over by the temporal power of the Church. Do you agree with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 the lame board should not flow into the debate board. it just shouldn't be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 When you're given a present, and lose it, break it, give it away, or have it taken away, it's very hard later to reclaim it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 Obviously, after Theodosius made Catholicism the official religion of the Roman Empire, the Holy Land was ruled by the temporal power of the Church de facto. The crusades regained this de facto rule over Jerusalem. Obviously, in today's climate it would be incredibly imprudent to call a crusade for the Holy Land, and it probably wouldn't meet the standards for a just war as there would likely not be a reasonable hope for success. But I would say that the temporal power of the Church has always the ruler of the Holy Land de jure since the Old Covenant was fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) The Holy Land was given to the Hebrews by God as a preparation for the First Coming of Jesus Christ. As so David, Solomon, the great Hebrew kings, were entrusted it, in order to pave the way for the coming of the Messiah. Once Christ accomplished His mission, the land was left open by God to be temporarily ruled by different kings and or peoples. Strictly speaking, as well as ideally speaking, the Holy Land and in particular Jerusalem is the Land and City of Jesus Christ. It is the Land and City of Peace. No one king or institution may claim a right to temporarily rule over it, unless it is given by God and His providence. One should claim to be protectorate of it, and allow the people there to live and worship in peace. Now because of the sinfulness of men, this obviously is impossible at least up until the Second Coming of Christ. So God permits different peoples and different kings to rule it among the sands of time. He permitted the Jews to return to the Holy Land as an act of Providence, not because they have any rightful claim to live and rule there. During the First Part of the Tribulation (or End Times) the world will begin to realize the importance of Jerusalem and the Holy Land. Jerusalem will have a role to play and when the First Part of the Tribulation is accomplished, many people will move there. A new Catholic Christian Basilica will be built, the Third Temple of the Jews as well as a new Mosque will all be completed. The Great Monarch of Prophecy will help rebuild it during the time known as the Era of Peace (the time after the sufferings of the First Part of the End Times is complete) and I think the Pope of that will grant a special position to an Eastern Patriarch of the See of Jerusalem. Rome will be the center of authority for the Church, and Jerusalem will be the center of worship for the Church. And beginning with the Great Monarch a line of Christian Kings will rule over it to prepare for the Second Coming of Christ, much like David, Solomon, et al of old. So to sort of answer your question, no the Church does not have the temporal authority to rule over the Holy Land and Jerusalem, since it is not within the plan of God. (please note, some of the above are my speculative opinions, based on my understanding of many and various verses of Sacred Scripture and Catholic eschatology. I felt no need to quote Scripture as a proof text. Rather I intended to share some of my basic ideas and welcome further inquiry into my ideas in a spirit of peace). Edited May 31, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) I don't see why you emphasize the importance of another Jewish temple. To rebuild the temple for Jewish worship would be to fall back into shadows and spit on the life-giving Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who fulfilled the Old Covenant by His Pasch. To support Muslim worship is also wrong as Muslim worship rejects the Lord God's revelation of His Triune nature as well as the Incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God. Edited May 31, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1879282' date='May 31 2009, 02:39 PM']I don't see why you emphasize the importance of another Jewish temple. To rebuild the temple for Jewish worship would be to fall back into shadows and spit on the life-giving Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who fulfilled the Old Covenant by his Pasch. To support Muslim worship is also wrong as Muslim worship rejects the Lord God's revelation of His Triune nature as well as the Incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God.[/quote] I'm not emphasizing the importance of the Temple and the Mosque. It simply is what it is. Dont act like a religious bigot. It isnt as simple as your limited understanding. If anything I am emphasizing the truth that the Holy Land and Jerusalem will be the center of Catholic Christianity after the First Part of the Tribulation for centuries leading up to the reign of Antichrist. It will be the last bastion of Christianity up until the reign of the ten kings and the rise of Antichrist. It will be a place of incredible Faith, and holiness and peace, unlike the world has ever seen. And it all begins with the events of the Tribulation and the rise of the Great Monarch and Angelic Shepherd, etc. Edited May 31, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 How do you feel about interpretations of the Apocalypse of St. John referring to Christian persecution, the destruction of Jerusalem, or the Liturgy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1879309' date='May 31 2009, 03:16 PM']How do you feel about interpretations of the Apocalypse of St. John referring to Christian persecution, the destruction of Jerusalem, or the Liturgy?[/quote] I'm not sure what you are asking here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocent Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1879274' date='Jun 1 2009, 01:02 AM']A new Catholic Christian Basilica will be built, the Third Temple of the Jews as well as a new Mosque will all be completed.[/quote] I'm not very well versed about matters regarding Jews, but I remember reading somewhere that by now it has become very difficult for anyone to prove their lineage to Aaron. Therefore will the Jews be able to find valid Kohanim for the temple? [quote name='kafka' post='1879286' date='Jun 1 2009, 01:16 AM']If anything I am emphasizing the truth that the Holy Land and Jerusalem will be the center of Catholic Christianity after the First Part of the Tribulation for centuries leading up to the reign of Antichrist. It will be the last bastion of Christianity up until the reign of the ten kings and the rise of Antichrist. It will be a place of incredible Faith, and holiness and peace, unlike the world has ever seen. And it all begins with the events of the Tribulation and the rise of the Great Monarch and Angelic Shepherd, etc.[/quote] Reminds me of Robert Hugh Benson's [url="http://www.archive.org/details/lordofworld00bensuoft"][i]Lord Of The World.[/i][/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Innocent' post='1879978' date='Jun 1 2009, 12:09 AM']Reminds me of Robert Hugh Benson's [url="http://www.archive.org/details/lordofworld00bensuoft"][i]Lord Of The World.[/i][/url][/quote] I read that a long time ago. It is fiction. I'm not sure if he was truly expressing his ideas about the End Times in that book or if he merely meant to express a sort of fictional account in order to appeal to the minds and hearts of the Faithful as a sort of meditation. In any case Sacred Scripture reveals things about the future which are even more astonishing than fiction. Edited June 1, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 [quote name='Innocent' post='1879978' date='Jun 1 2009, 12:09 AM']I'm not very well versed about matters regarding Jews, but I remember reading somewhere that by now it has become very difficult for anyone to prove their lineage to Aaron. Therefore will the Jews be able to find valid Kohanim for the temple?[/quote] I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocent Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1879994' date='Jun 1 2009, 10:47 AM']I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.[/quote] I wasn't trying to make any point against you, if that's what you mean. I was just wondering aloud. I was thinking the same thing when I read the book of Maccabees recently: After all the disorganisation the Hebrew society has been through, it's going to be difficult for them to accurately find descendants of Aaron to be priests. But I suppose having a Third Temple in Jerusalem would make them happy enough that they wouldn't worry too much about accurately determining lineage from Aaron. Anyway, this point most likely has minimal relevance to this discussion. As I said I was just wondering aloud. Sorry about the hijack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Innocent' post='1880008' date='Jun 1 2009, 12:26 AM']I wasn't trying to make any point against you, if that's what you mean. I was just wondering aloud. I was thinking the same thing when I read the book of Maccabees recently: After all the disorganisation the Hebrew society has been through, it's going to be difficult for them to accurately find descendants of Aaron to be priests. But I suppose having a Third Temple in Jerusalem would make them happy enough that they wouldn't worry too much about accurately determining lineage from Aaron. Anyway, this point most likely has minimal relevance to this discussion. As I said I was just wondering aloud. Sorry about the hijack.[/quote] no not at all. I think the first few events of the Tribulation will spark the Jews purpose of rebuilding a Third Temple. Their interpretation of the events will be different than the Catholic's interpretation or the Muslim's interpretation. It is not as if everything will all of a sudden be clear as the Tribulation unfolds, there will be much confusion and much fear. Even the Pope in fear will perhaps suggest that 'tents' be erected for the three main religions in the City of Peace, as Saint Peter said at the Transfiguration: {17:4} And Peter responded by saying to Jesus: “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you are willing, let us make three tabernacles here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” One for Christ: the Christian Basilica. One for Moses: The Third Temple. One for Elijah: the Mosque. Out of fear I dont think the Jews will worry about establishing the line back to Aaron. For the Tribulation will be severe and harsh. Edited June 1, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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