Vote For Kerry

[jmjtina]

so your saying more children were "saved" in Clinton's years vs. Bush? We were better under the Clinton administration in regards to abortion? That is not true and you know it. If I misinterpreted your post, then I am sorry, but this is what I am getting from it.

Clinton TWICE vetoed the national ban on partial abortion.
Clinton ORDERED US military facilities to provide abortions, which the military fought because of it's stance on "killing a soldiers baby" is not an option.
Clinton ordered his appointees to facilitate the introduction of RU486 in the US. He also restored the funding to pro-abortion organizations in foreign nations etc, etc, .......[b]AND resumed funding to the pro-abortion UNFPA, which participates in management of China's FORCED abortion program[/b]......this makes me sick.

Bush is appointing more pro-life ppl to the Supreme court and banned Partial Birth Abortion (which is being fought in the courts) as well as other things. To say or to imply (which i hope I'm wrong) that we were better under the pro-murdering Clinton is to be blind of the truth. He is not perfect, but to state that Clinton did a better job at "saving" lives is not true.

And abortion isn't just at the abortion clinic, clinton brought in RU-486 and more contraception through Planned Parenthood not only in the clinics but also in our schools (!), as well as funding for abortion to third world countries, then it's easy to go by the illusion that there were less abortions. In fact, there were more. IN fact we are still trying to undo the evil he has done. To say the contrary is an utter lie and a blindness to what is really going on.

God Bless.

[Carson Weber]

PhatPhred,

This week, we'll see Bush sign into law the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, of which Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) remarked, "If this result is incorporated into law, it will be the first step in removing a woman's right to choice," and for which Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry rushed back to Washington to vote against and help abortion rights supporters try to defeat. - [url="http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/News/040326c.asp"]http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/News/040326c.asp[/url]

Kerry has said that the first thing he will do as president is to overturn a pro-life foreign policy that prevents taxpayer funding of abortion overseas (Bush's Mexico City Policy). First instituted by President Reagan in 1984, the pro-life foreign policy prevents taxpayer money from going to groups that promote or perform abortions in other countries. On his first day in office, President Bush reinstated the policy after former president Bill Clinton had canceled it during his eight years in office. - [url="http://www.lifenews.com/nat360.html"]http://www.lifenews.com/nat360.html[/url]

And.. [b]Bush Walks the Talk[/b] can be viewed here: [url="http://www.righttoliferoch.org/nbushlist.htm"]http://www.righttoliferoch.org/nbushlist.htm[/url] - which is as follows..

January 22, 2001 President Bush Reinstates Mexico City Policy [url="http://www.humaneventsonline.com/articles/01-29-01/mexicocity.html"]http://www.humaneventsonline.com/articles/...mexicocity.html[/url]

March 22, 2001 President Bush Helps Dedicate Pope John Paul II Cultural Center [url="http://www.nrlc.org/news/2001/NRL04/"]http://www.nrlc.org/news/2001/NRL04/[/url]

"The Pope reminds us that while freedom defines our nation, responsibility must define our lives," the President said. "He challenges us to live up to our aspirations, to be a fair and just society where all are welcomed, all are valued, and all are protected. And he is never more eloquent than when he speaks for a culture of life. The culture of life is a welcoming culture, never excluding, never dividing, never despairing and always affirming the goodness of life in all its seasons."

March 28, 2001 Reuters reports "Bush issues abortion rule order, outflanks Senate" [url="http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/bush_abortionrights010122.html"]http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/Da...ghts010122.html[/url]

April 17, 2001 President Bush Restricts RU-86 Funding and Close White House Feminist Office [url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2001/apr/01040303.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2001/apr/01040303.html[/url]

April 24, 2001 Bush Bans Sex Films from Air Force One [url="http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_270918.html"]http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_270918.html[/url]

April 25, 2001 President Bush appoints Fatherhood proponent [url="http://www.familiesnorthwest.org/dynpage.cfm?DPID=65"]http://www.familiesnorthwest.org/dynpage.cfm?DPID=65[/url]

April 30, 2001 Proclamation - National Day of Prayer [url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/04/20010430-2.html"]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20010430-2.html[/url]

May 16, 2001 U.S. House Backs President Bush in Denying Funds to Overseas Groups That Promote Abortion Legalization [url="http://www.consistentlife.org/US%20House%20Upholds%20Pro-life%20Mexico%20City%20Policy.htm"]http://www.consistentlife.org/US%20House%2...ty%20Policy.htm[/url]

May 17, 2001 Bush Administration Begins Effort to Put Pro-Life Advocates on Intl Panels - Reported in the Washington Post

May 21 Further Analysis Shows Bush's First Judicial Picks Promising Source: Pro-Life Infonet

May 26 Bush Overrules Powell on Nominee Appoints Pro-lifer to Important State Department Post [url="http://tennesseerighttolife.org/news_center/archives/05262001-03.htm"]http://tennesseerighttolife.org/news_cente...05262001-03.htm[/url]

June 1, 2001 Bush Won't Issue Gay Proclamation, Opts Out of Gay Pride Day - Reported by Associated Press

June 21, 2001 Bush Supports Strongest Pro-Life Ban on Human Cloning - Reported by Associated Press

July 6, 2001 Bush Administration Awards Abstinence Grants to CPCs, Pro-Life Groups

August 13, 2001 Bush Would Veto Any Funding of Additional ESCR

August 16, 2001 Attorney General John Ashcroft recently warned that less than 10 % of judges nominated by Bush have even had a hearing before the Democratically led Senate Judiciary Committee

August 28, 2001 Bush Won't Back Down to the United Nations on Abortion - reported by Reuters

October 15, 2001 Bush Administration Awards Adoption Awareness Grants- HHS Press Release

November 7, 2001 White House and Lawmakers Fight Pro-Abortion Amendments

Democratically Led Senate Attempts to Weaken Pro-Life Policies Are Blocked by Veto Threats and Pro-Life Lawmakers

December 5, 2001 Bush Selects Pro-Life Ex-Gov to Head Republican Party

December 10, 2002 Changes in the White House (from the Patriot's Herald) [url="http://www.patriotsherald.com/content/changed.php"]http://www.patriotsherald.com/content/changed.php[/url]

January 31, 2002 Bush Administration Proposes Coverage of Unborn Children in Health Insurance [url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/jan/02013106.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/jan/02013106.html[/url]

February 26, 2002 President Bush's Remarks at St. Luke's Catholic Church [url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/02/images/20020226-11.html"]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...0020226-11.html[/url]

September 27, 2002 Bush Administration Finalizes Coverage of Unborn Child in Health Insurance [url="http://www.vshl.org/press/2002/nrlc_20020927.shtml"]http://www.vshl.org/press/2002/nrlc_20020927.shtml[/url]

January 18, 2002 Bush Declares Sanctity of Life Day January 20, 2002 [url="http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/02-01-18bush.htm"]http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/02-01-18bush.htm[/url]

January 22, 2002 Remarks By President Bush in Phone Call to March For Life Participants [url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/jan/020122a.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/jan/020122a.html[/url]

January 30, 2002 President Bush Seeks Increased Abstinence Funding -Reported By Associated Press

January 31, 2002 Bush Administration Classifies Developing Fetus as Unborn Child - Reported By Associated Press

States may classify a developing fetus as an "unborn child" eligible for government health care, the Bush administration said Thursday, giving low-income women access to prenatal care and bolstering the arguments of abortion opponents.

February 1, 2002 President Bush has chosen an advocate for the aging who once worked with Mother Teresa to head his revamped effort to provide federal funds to religious charities. See the interview with Jim Towey in Crisis Magazine [url="http://www.crisismagazine.com/june2002/feature6.htm"]http://www.crisismagazine.com/june2002/feature6.htm[/url]

February 2, 2002 President Bush's Sincere Appreciation For Prayers Said For Him [url="http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/bushprayerreq.htm"]http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/bushprayerreq.htm[/url]

February 8, 2002 Federally Funded Planned Parenthood Launches All Out Attack Against Bush Judicial Nominee [url="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/624592/posts"]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/624592/posts[/url]

February 26, 2002 The President's Welfare Reform focuses on families, abstinence and work [url="http://www.family.org/cforum/feature/a0019805.html"]http://www.family.org/cforum/feature/a0019805.html[/url]

March 6, 2002 Bush's National Institute of Health Nominee Supports Complete Ban on Human Cloning - Reported by Washington Post, Baltimore Sun

March 14, 2002 Democratically led Senate quashes Nomination of Pro-Life Judge Charles Pickering [url="http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=918"]http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/n...e.asp?story=918[/url]

April 8, 2002 President Bush Will Speak to Pro-Life Leaders Wednesday- Reported by National Right to Life News

April 10, 2002 President Bush's Remarks in Opposition to Human Cloning [url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/04/20020410-4.html"]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20020410-4.html[/url]

April 11, 2002 President Bush Calls on Senate to Back Human Cloning Ban [url="http://www.nrlc.org/nv041102.html"]http://www.nrlc.org/nv041102.html[/url]

April 11, 2002 Friday Fax/UN Decides Against Cairo+10, Fears Bush Administration

May 2, 2002 Proclamation National Day of Prayer [url="http://www.nationaldayofprayer.org/media/president.cfm"]http://www.nationaldayofprayer.org/media/president.cfm[/url]

May 2, 2002 Bush Administration Opposing Abortion at UN Child Conference - Reported by Catholic Family & Human Rights Institute

May 23, 2002 Pro-Life Judge D. Brook Smith confirmed for Third Circuit Court of Appeals [url="http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/SHAKE/shakeHome.asp"]http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/SHAKE/shakeHome.asp[/url]

May 26, 2002 Atheist loses bid to halt Bush's faith references [url="http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/story/2882530p-3704157c.html"]http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/sto...p-3704157c.html[/url]

May 31, 2002 Crisis Magazine Editor Evaluates Bush's Relations With U.S. Catholics [url="http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjub/200206/0009.html"]http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjub/200206/0009.html[/url]

July 9, 2002 Pro-Abortion Groups Attack Bush Judicial Nominee- Priscilla Owen - Reported by Associated Press

July 22, 2002 Bush Administration Withholds UNFPA Money- Reported by Associated Press

July 24, 2002 Bush Announces Initiavtive to Encourage Adoptoin of Children in Foster Care [url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/07/20020723.html"]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...7/20020723.html[/url]

August 5, 2002 Bush Signs Born-Alive Infants Protection Act

September 17, 2002 NARAL Opposes Michael McConnell's Nomination to the Tenth Circuit Court Of Appeals Statement of NARAL President Kate Michelman [url="http://www.naral.org/mediaresources/press/2002/pr091702_mcconnell.html"]http://www.naral.org/mediaresources/press/..._mcconnell.html[/url]

October 3, 2002 Democrat-Controlled U.S. Senate Kills Pro-Life Bills Favored by President Bush and Passed by U.S. House [url="http://www.nrlc.org/Federal/LegUpdates/Congressionalwrapup100302.html"]http://www.nrlc.org/Federal/LegUpdates/Con...apup100302.html[/url]

* The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (H.R. 4965), passed by the House on July 24, 2002, 274-151.

* The Weldon-Stupak-Brownback legislation to ban all human cloning, including the cloning of human embryos (H.R. 2505, S. 1899), passed by the House on July 31, 2001, 265-162.

* The Unborn Victims of Violence Act (H.R. 503), a bill to recognize as a legal victim any unborn child who is injured or killed during commission of a federal crime, passed by the House on April 26, 2001, 252-172.

* The Child Custody Protection Act (H.R. 476), to make it a crime to take a minor across state lines for a secret abortion, if this abridges her parents right to be involved under their home-state law, passed by the House on April 17, 2002, 260-161.

* The Abortion Non-Discrimination Act (H.R. 4691), to prohibit state and local governments from discriminating against hospitals and other health care providers for refusing to participate in abortions, passed by the House on September 25, 2002, 229-189.

October 6, 2002 President Bush Building Strong Pro-Life Record _Reported by Boston Globe

October 14, 2002 White House staffers gather for Voluntary Bible Study Voluntary Meetings - Reported by USA Today

October 17, 2002 Germany Attacks Bush Administration Position Against All Human Cloning - Reported By Catholic Family & Human Rights Institute

October 29, 2002 Pro-Abortion Group and Senator Daschle jointly appeal for pro-abortion Senate- Reported by National Right to Life Source: Email Sent From NARAL

October 29, 2002 Pro-Abortion Group opposes nomination of Dr. W. David Hager to chair the Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hager is a member groups like Christian Medical Association and Physicians Resource Council for Focus on the Family source California Abortion Rights Action League [url="http://www.caral.org/alert_current.html"]http://www.caral.org/alert_current.html[/url]

October 30, 2002 Bush Directs Advisory Committee to Protect Human Embryos Source: Associated Press,Washington Post

October 31, 2002 Pro-Life Groups Applaud Bush Decision on Human Embryos Source:Cybercast News Service

November 1, 2002 Bush backs away from reproductive health pact Source: Knight Ridder Newspapers [url="http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/4424134.htm"]http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/4424134.htm[/url]

November 8, 2002 Bush Administration Fights for UN to Oppose All Human Cloning Source: Reuters

November 8, 2002 Bush Right to Oppose Abortion at International Meetings -article by Steven Mosher Source:Population Resource Institute

November 14, 2002 White House Pressures Congress to Keep Military Abortion Ban Source: Pro-Life Infonet

Novermber 18, 2002 Pro-Abortion Senators May Filibuster Pro-Life Judicial Nominee Source: NY Times, National Review

November 19, 2002 Senate Approves Pro-Life Judicial Nominee Source:Associated Press

November 19, 2002 Bush Administration Opposition Continues to Derail Fake UN Cloning Ban Source: Associated Press

November 21, 2002 Bush Nominee for FDA Panel Says RU 486 Unsafe Source: Cybercast News Service

November 25, 2002 Abortion Advocates Bash Bush's Pro-Life Foreign Policy Source: Cybercast News Service

November 26, 2002 Don't Believe the Media Portrayal of Bush as Not Pro-Life by Paul Weyrich Source: Cybercast News Service

November 26, 2002 Radicals Attack Bush Because of UN Pro-life Stance Source: Austin Ruse of Friday Fax

[PhatPhred]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Mar 27 2004, 07:31 PM']so your saying more children were "saved" in Clinton's years vs. Bush?[/quote]
Are you saying that the statistics are wrong? Or are you saying that it is better to have a president who says the right things about abortion but doesn't actually reduce the number of abortions than a president who says all the wrong things about abortions but nonetheless significantly reduces the number of abortions?

ironmonk's argument is that killing thousands of people in an unjust war can be justified by George W. Bush's pro-life moral example, even though that stellar example hasn't made a bit of difference in how many abortions are performed. Can't that same argument be used to justify Clinton's horrific pro-choice immoral example by looking at how many unborn lives have actually been saved by his other policies?

And if you don't like the second conclusion, then maybe that argument isn't really a valid demonstration of the first conclusion either.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Carson Weber' date='Mar 27 2004, 05:57 PM'] PhatPhred,

This week, we'll see Bush sign into law the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, of which Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) remarked, "If this result is incorporated into law, it will be the first step in removing a woman's right to choice," and for which Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry rushed back to Washington to vote against and help abortion rights supporters try to defeat. - [url="http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/News/040326c.asp"]http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/News/040326c.asp[/url]

Kerry has said that the first thing he will do as president is to overturn a pro-life foreign policy that prevents taxpayer funding of abortion overseas (Bush's Mexico City Policy).  First instituted by President Reagan in 1984, the pro-life foreign policy prevents taxpayer money from going to groups that promote or perform abortions in other countries. On his first day in office, President Bush reinstated the policy after former president Bill Clinton had canceled it during his eight years in office. - [url="http://www.lifenews.com/nat360.html"]http://www.lifenews.com/nat360.html[/url]

And.. [b]Bush Walks the Talk[/b] can be viewed here: [url="http://www.righttoliferoch.org/nbushlist.htm"]http://www.righttoliferoch.org/nbushlist.htm[/url] - which is as follows..

January 22, 2001 President Bush Reinstates Mexico City Policy [url="http://www.humaneventsonline.com/articles/01-29-01/mexicocity.html"]http://www.humaneventsonline.com/articles/...mexicocity.html[/url]

March 22, 2001 President Bush Helps Dedicate Pope John Paul II Cultural Center [url="http://www.nrlc.org/news/2001/NRL04/"]http://www.nrlc.org/news/2001/NRL04/[/url]

"The Pope reminds us that while freedom defines our nation, responsibility must define our lives," the President said. "He challenges us to live up to our aspirations, to be a fair and just society where all are welcomed, all are valued, and all are protected. And he is never more eloquent than when he speaks for a culture of life. The culture of life is a welcoming culture, never excluding, never dividing, never despairing and always affirming the goodness of life in all its seasons."

March 28, 2001 Reuters reports "Bush issues abortion rule order, outflanks Senate" [url="http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/bush_abortionrights010122.html"]http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/Da...ghts010122.html[/url]

April 17, 2001 President Bush Restricts RU-86 Funding and Close White House Feminist Office [url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2001/apr/01040303.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2001/apr/01040303.html[/url]

April 24, 2001 Bush Bans Sex Films from Air Force One [url="http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_270918.html"]http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_270918.html[/url]

April 25, 2001 President Bush appoints Fatherhood proponent [url="http://www.familiesnorthwest.org/dynpage.cfm?DPID=65"]http://www.familiesnorthwest.org/dynpage.cfm?DPID=65[/url]

April 30, 2001 Proclamation - National Day of Prayer [url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/04/20010430-2.html"]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20010430-2.html[/url]

May 16, 2001 U.S. House Backs President Bush in Denying Funds to Overseas Groups That Promote Abortion Legalization [url="http://www.consistentlife.org/US%20House%20Upholds%20Pro-life%20Mexico%20City%20Policy.htm"]http://www.consistentlife.org/US%20House%2...ty%20Policy.htm[/url]

May 17, 2001 Bush Administration Begins Effort to Put Pro-Life Advocates on Intl Panels - Reported in the Washington Post

May 21 Further Analysis Shows Bush's First Judicial Picks Promising Source: Pro-Life Infonet

May 26 Bush Overrules Powell on Nominee Appoints Pro-lifer to Important State Department Post [url="http://tennesseerighttolife.org/news_center/archives/05262001-03.htm"]http://tennesseerighttolife.org/news_cente...05262001-03.htm[/url]

June 1, 2001 Bush Won't Issue Gay Proclamation, Opts Out of Gay Pride Day - Reported by Associated Press

June 21, 2001 Bush Supports Strongest Pro-Life Ban on Human Cloning - Reported by Associated Press

July 6, 2001 Bush Administration Awards Abstinence Grants to CPCs, Pro-Life Groups

August 13, 2001 Bush Would Veto Any Funding of Additional ESCR

August 16, 2001 Attorney General John Ashcroft recently warned that less than 10 % of judges nominated by Bush have even had a hearing before the Democratically led Senate Judiciary Committee

August 28, 2001 Bush Won't Back Down to the United Nations on Abortion - reported by Reuters

October 15, 2001 Bush Administration Awards Adoption Awareness Grants- HHS Press Release

November 7, 2001 White House and Lawmakers Fight Pro-Abortion Amendments

Democratically Led Senate Attempts to Weaken Pro-Life Policies Are Blocked by Veto Threats and Pro-Life Lawmakers

December 5, 2001 Bush Selects Pro-Life Ex-Gov to Head Republican Party

December 10, 2002 Changes in the White House (from the Patriot's Herald) [url="http://www.patriotsherald.com/content/changed.php"]http://www.patriotsherald.com/content/changed.php[/url] 

January 31, 2002 Bush Administration Proposes Coverage of Unborn Children in Health Insurance [url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/jan/02013106.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/jan/02013106.html[/url]

February 26, 2002 President Bush's Remarks at St. Luke's Catholic Church [url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/02/images/20020226-11.html"]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...0020226-11.html[/url]

September 27, 2002 Bush Administration Finalizes Coverage of Unborn Child in Health Insurance [url="http://www.vshl.org/press/2002/nrlc_20020927.shtml"]http://www.vshl.org/press/2002/nrlc_20020927.shtml[/url]

January 18, 2002 Bush Declares Sanctity of Life Day January 20, 2002 [url="http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/02-01-18bush.htm"]http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/02-01-18bush.htm[/url]

January 22, 2002 Remarks By President Bush in Phone Call to March For Life Participants [url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/jan/020122a.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2002/jan/020122a.html[/url]

January 30, 2002 President Bush Seeks Increased Abstinence Funding -Reported By Associated Press

January 31, 2002 Bush Administration Classifies Developing Fetus as Unborn Child - Reported By Associated Press

States may classify a developing fetus as an "unborn child" eligible for government health care, the Bush administration said Thursday, giving low-income women access to prenatal care and bolstering the arguments of abortion opponents.

February 1, 2002 President Bush has chosen an advocate for the aging who once worked with Mother Teresa to head his revamped effort to provide federal funds to religious charities. See the interview with Jim Towey in Crisis Magazine [url="http://www.crisismagazine.com/june2002/feature6.htm"]http://www.crisismagazine.com/june2002/feature6.htm[/url]

February 2, 2002 President Bush's Sincere Appreciation For Prayers Said For Him [url="http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/bushprayerreq.htm"]http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/bushprayerreq.htm[/url]

February 8, 2002 Federally Funded Planned Parenthood Launches All Out Attack Against Bush Judicial Nominee [url="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/624592/posts"]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/624592/posts[/url]

February 26, 2002 The President's Welfare Reform focuses on families, abstinence and work [url="http://www.family.org/cforum/feature/a0019805.html"]http://www.family.org/cforum/feature/a0019805.html[/url]

March 6, 2002 Bush's National Institute of Health Nominee Supports Complete Ban on Human Cloning - Reported by Washington Post, Baltimore Sun

March 14, 2002 Democratically led Senate quashes Nomination of Pro-Life Judge Charles Pickering [url="http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=918"]http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/n...e.asp?story=918[/url]

April 8, 2002 President Bush Will Speak to Pro-Life Leaders Wednesday- Reported by National Right to Life News

April 10, 2002 President Bush's Remarks in Opposition to Human Cloning [url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/04/20020410-4.html"]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20020410-4.html[/url]

April 11, 2002 President Bush Calls on Senate to Back Human Cloning Ban [url="http://www.nrlc.org/nv041102.html"]http://www.nrlc.org/nv041102.html[/url]

April 11, 2002 Friday Fax/UN Decides Against Cairo+10, Fears Bush Administration

May 2, 2002 Proclamation National Day of Prayer [url="http://www.nationaldayofprayer.org/media/president.cfm"]http://www.nationaldayofprayer.org/media/president.cfm[/url]

May 2, 2002 Bush Administration Opposing Abortion at UN Child Conference - Reported by Catholic Family & Human Rights Institute

May 23, 2002 Pro-Life Judge D. Brook Smith confirmed for Third Circuit Court of Appeals [url="http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/SHAKE/shakeHome.asp"]http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/SHAKE/shakeHome.asp[/url]

May 26, 2002 Atheist loses bid to halt Bush's faith references [url="http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/story/2882530p-3704157c.html"]http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/sto...p-3704157c.html[/url]

May 31, 2002 Crisis Magazine Editor Evaluates Bush's Relations With U.S. Catholics [url="http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjub/200206/0009.html"]http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjub/200206/0009.html[/url]

July 9, 2002 Pro-Abortion Groups Attack Bush Judicial Nominee- Priscilla Owen - Reported by Associated Press

July 22, 2002 Bush Administration Withholds UNFPA Money- Reported by Associated Press

July 24, 2002 Bush Announces Initiavtive to Encourage Adoptoin of Children in Foster Care [url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/07/20020723.html"]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...7/20020723.html[/url]

August 5, 2002 Bush Signs Born-Alive Infants Protection Act

September 17, 2002 NARAL Opposes Michael McConnell's Nomination to the Tenth Circuit Court Of Appeals Statement of NARAL President Kate Michelman [url="http://www.naral.org/mediaresources/press/2002/pr091702_mcconnell.html"]http://www.naral.org/mediaresources/press/..._mcconnell.html[/url]

October 3, 2002 Democrat-Controlled U.S. Senate Kills Pro-Life Bills Favored by President Bush and Passed by U.S. House [url="http://www.nrlc.org/Federal/LegUpdates/Congressionalwrapup100302.html"]http://www.nrlc.org/Federal/LegUpdates/Con...apup100302.html[/url]

* The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (H.R. 4965), passed by the House on July 24, 2002, 274-151.

* The Weldon-Stupak-Brownback legislation to ban all human cloning, including the cloning of human embryos (H.R. 2505, S. 1899), passed by the House on July 31, 2001, 265-162.

* The Unborn Victims of Violence Act (H.R. 503), a bill to recognize as a legal victim any unborn child who is injured or killed during commission of a federal crime, passed by the House on April 26, 2001, 252-172.

* The Child Custody Protection Act (H.R. 476), to make it a crime to take a minor across state lines for a secret abortion, if this abridges her parents right to be involved under their home-state law, passed by the House on April 17, 2002, 260-161.

* The Abortion Non-Discrimination Act (H.R. 4691), to prohibit state and local governments from discriminating against hospitals and other health care providers for refusing to participate in abortions, passed by the House on September 25, 2002, 229-189.

October 6, 2002 President Bush Building Strong Pro-Life Record _Reported by Boston Globe

October 14, 2002 White House staffers gather for Voluntary Bible Study Voluntary Meetings - Reported by USA Today

October 17, 2002 Germany Attacks Bush Administration Position Against All Human Cloning - Reported By Catholic Family & Human Rights Institute

October 29, 2002 Pro-Abortion Group and Senator Daschle jointly appeal for pro-abortion Senate- Reported by National Right to Life Source: Email Sent From NARAL

October 29, 2002 Pro-Abortion Group opposes nomination of Dr. W. David Hager to chair the Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hager is a member groups like Christian Medical Association and Physicians Resource Council for Focus on the Family source California Abortion Rights Action League [url="http://www.caral.org/alert_current.html"]http://www.caral.org/alert_current.html[/url]

October 30, 2002 Bush Directs Advisory Committee to Protect Human Embryos Source: Associated Press,Washington Post

October 31, 2002 Pro-Life Groups Applaud Bush Decision on Human Embryos Source:Cybercast News Service

November 1, 2002 Bush backs away from reproductive health pact Source: Knight Ridder Newspapers [url="http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/4424134.htm"]http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/4424134.htm[/url]

November 8, 2002 Bush Administration Fights for UN to Oppose All Human Cloning Source: Reuters

November 8, 2002 Bush Right to Oppose Abortion at International Meetings -article by Steven Mosher Source:Population Resource Institute

November 14, 2002 White House Pressures Congress to Keep Military Abortion Ban Source: Pro-Life Infonet

Novermber 18, 2002 Pro-Abortion Senators May Filibuster Pro-Life Judicial Nominee Source: NY Times, National Review

November 19, 2002 Senate Approves Pro-Life Judicial Nominee Source:Associated Press

November 19, 2002 Bush Administration Opposition Continues to Derail Fake UN Cloning Ban Source: Associated Press

November 21, 2002 Bush Nominee for FDA Panel Says RU 486 Unsafe Source: Cybercast News Service

November 25, 2002 Abortion Advocates Bash Bush's Pro-Life Foreign Policy Source: Cybercast News Service

November 26, 2002 Don't Believe the Media Portrayal of Bush as Not Pro-Life by Paul Weyrich Source: Cybercast News Service

November 26, 2002 Radicals Attack Bush Because of UN Pro-life Stance Source: Austin Ruse of Friday Fax [/quote]

nuff said.

PhatPhred, I am not denying the stats....but are you denying that in fact Bush is doing more to truly save the unborn from abortion? Remember, Clinton is an advocate of abortion, so how can he truly cause less murder? check out the link again..... [url="http://www.nrlc.org/news/2003/NRL01/clinton3.pdf"] http://www.nrlc.org/news/2003/NRL01/clinton3.pdf[/url]

Carson, you are one cool dude.

[PhatPhred]

[quote name='Carson Weber' date='Mar 27 2004, 07:57 PM']And.. [b]Bush Walks the Talk[/b] can be viewed here: [url="http://www.righttoliferoch.org/nbushlist.htm"]http://www.righttoliferoch.org/nbushlist.htm[/url] - which is as follows..[/quote]
A very long list, and as far as it goes, all good stuff. Bush is very talented at getting a lot of pro-life publicity. But just tell me one thing that I didn't see mentioned in your list: [b]Just how many unborn lives did Bush manage to save in his first term?[/b] Or explain to me why this isn't a relevant and important factor for a faithful Catholic voter to consider.

[Carson Weber]

PhatPhred,

That is like asking how many essays you wrote during the first year of your life. The American executive, judicial, and legislative branches work in a system of checks and balances that work in a unity through time (not overnight), and we are beginning to see the fruits of Bush's first term as I type out this post - as I have shown at the beginning of my last post and as jmjtina has shown at the top of page 3 of this thread.

You're expecting the unrealistic in the hopes of convincing others of what isn't true. you're beating a dead horse, which is both irrational and unfruitful.

[PhatPhred]

[quote name='Carson Weber' date='Mar 27 2004, 07:57 PM']April 24, 2001 Bush Bans Sex Films from Air Force One [/quote]
While commendable, I don't see what this has to do with pro-life. Why the need to pad Bush's pro-life resume?

[PhatPhred]

[quote name='Carson Weber' date='Mar 27 2004, 08:11 PM'] You're expecting the unrealistic in the hopes of beating a dead horse, which is both irrational and unfruitful. [/quote]
Yet the facts of Clinton's presidency indicate that it is quite realistic, and in fact easily achievable by a pro-choice president with the right social policies who (according to you) had no interest in reducing the number of abortions.

[jmjtina]

it was also easily achievable for this "pro-choice" prez to veto twice the Partial Abortion Bill and allowed the murder of a child while being delivered.




i thought every pro-lifer knew it was 100 times harder to get a single pro-life bill passed versus the pro-death bill, but it can be done as the fruit of the work is showing. And it didn't help that NRL sided with PP recently either in South Dakota.

did you also realize that the baby ironmonk posted is his own lovely daughter Olivia?

[Iacobus]

jmjtina, I was not implying that ANYONE at all on PM is like that or even 5% of the pro life people are like that. What I mean is where I go to school, VERY LOCALIZED, there are a LOT of people who saw they are pro life and by that they mean on abortion, nothing about the rest. They are Christians but VERY lukewarm. They do a lot of talk but rarely walk the walk. They rub me the wrong way. That is half the reason for the quote in my sig, without a byline thanks to Carson (TY, I should have done fact checking before entering it) "Preach the Gospel at all times, and when nessecary use words." It is one thing to be able to recite every word from the sermon on the mount and to roll off verses like "If anyone wants to be a folllower of Mine, let him renoucnce himself and take up his cross and follow Me." But when you then go out and make a big show of you praying (Sermon on the Mount) and partice "Holier than thou" and cut and paste Christiany what are you doing but sin? So I am sorry if anyone took that comment wrong. I was refering to a large group of people (50) in a VERY small location (a town of 800).

A question about Kerry and the unborn victims of vilance. Didn't he come back to vote on it? He voted yes on an admentment that failed by only a few votes that would have increased the penalities for crimes that kill a group of cells and a soul. But made no line between the women and the fetus. But no on the bill vireseon that passed.

And an other thing. Does the bill apply to only federal crimes? I thought I heard that. If it does the law is more for show. Federal crimes are very limited and most violent crimes (ie when the fetus could be killed) are state level. But I am not sure about that, I might have dreamed up the federal only thing.

And the numbers under Bill Clintion did go down. The numbers between two states (Texas and Mass. in 1996) had a difference of 0.02 abortions per person. Different parties in charge in the two states. (I can get you the links but I think they are on the basement computer, I will post them when I find them). All this tells me is that abortion is a social norm controled by society and the pres or the congress have little impact on it.

The only way for abortion to really become illegal in the US rests in the state and the federal courts and the senate and the governers office and the pres and the state senate and the people. It has to be handed up through the courts to the USSC. Thus the people need to elect pro life judges and pro life state goverments. THAN after those are set up they need to set up a pro life WH and pro life Senate. THAN they have to wait for some USSC justices to die. THAN they have to nomatinte pro life justices from the pro life WH that will be confrimed by the pro life senate. THAN the case has to come up through the lower courts to the USSC to be overturned. Focusing in on Kerry v. Bush won't do any good if the Senate and states are abortion rights and we elect an anti abortion pres.

Pray for an end.

[PhatPhred]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Mar 27 2004, 08:46 PM']it was also easily achievable for this "pro-choice" prez to veto twice the Partial Abortion Bill and allowed the murder of a child while being delivered.[/quote]
I think we are in agreement on some basics:
[list]

[*]Clinton vetoing the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban twice is highly immoral, and a bad example for our country.

[*]Bush passing a Partial-Birth Abortion Ban is an excellent moral example to set for our country, despite the fact that it has not saved a single unborn life due to the legal issues in how it was drafted. These same legal issues have managed to generate a lot of pro-life publicity for Bush, however.

[/list]
My question is whether the difference between these two examples is so unmistakably drastic as to be a simple matter of good vs. evil, light vs. dark, right vs. wrong that makes all other issues (including, e.g., the number of unborn lives actually saved, versus the deaths of thousands in an unjust war) completely irrelevant.

The [url="http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/bishopStatement.html"]REAL CATHOLIC VOTER'S GUIDE (THIS IS AN HTML LINK!!!)[/url], you know, the one put out by the U.S. Catholic Bishops, says:

[quote]We urge our fellow citizens "to see beyond party politics, [b]to analyze campaign rhetoric critically[/b], and to choose their political leaders according to principle, not party affiliation or mere self-interest."[/quote]
I think that a critical campaign analysis has to consider Bush's actual accomplishments in saving unborn lives in addition to his rhetoric, however exemplary that rhetoric is morally.

[Carson Weber]

PhatPhred,

The Voter's Guide says, "to choose their political leaders according to principle," not according to statistics that will not [i]immediately[/i] be indicative of actions and policies formed upon those principles.

I have shown above an assorted and rather lengthy [i]CV[/i] of Bush's pro-life activity, and the proper response on your part should not be a coninuation of pressing your initial agenda but rather one that fairly acknowledges that you are incorrect with regard to the principles and efficacy of the Bush Administration.

Here's another example for you:

--- taken from [url="http://www.rac.org/legislate/020402.html"]http://www.rac.org/legislate/020402.html[/url]

On January 31, in another blow to women’s reproductive freedom, President Bush announced that states will now be allowed to classify a developing fetus as an “unborn child” eligible for government health care under the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP). S-CHIP, enacted in 1997, was intended to expand health insurance to children in low-income families. In most states, the program covers only children, although some states have received waivers from the federal government to extend the coverage to their parents. The new regulation would clarify that states may include coverage for children from conception to age 19, allowing pregnant women to receive prenatal and delivery care.

Supporters of the plan argue that it is a vital step toward enhancing prenatal and delivery care. However, this new rule is more a conservative political statement than a serious policy effort, as the Administration could have broadened coverage to pregnant women through many other means. President Bush’s decision is essentially a backdoor effort to expand legal protections for fetuses and effectively opens the floodgates for legislation that would restrict the reproductive rights of American women.
_____

The Culture of Death can recognize a Pro-Lifer when it sees one; what blinds you?

[Iacobus]

Bush hasn't been very good about keeping his campagin promises to the people. NCLB (16.3% of ALL AMERICAN students are affect in some negative way by the way the Bush admin wrote and spent the money, or didn't spend that money, FYI there are 72 million students in America, do the math) and nation building (IRAQ!!!) are great examples. He is a poltician and wants votes. A lot of the things coming out of his admin aren't terribly well thought (back doors in e-Com. apps, revaling the ID of a CIA agent in the field). I don't feel that I can trust W. when we says something. I don't trust him to lead our nation. I see all the broken promises in the past and look at him now and ask everytime I see his smirk, is he spining again? His promise and talk on abortion is the same way.

It is like you asking to borrow 30 dollars from me to pay for a heating bill and I never give you the 30 dollars even though I promised you I would. After that are you going to ask me if you can borrow a text book for class?

Whenever he says something, or any of the runners say something, that makes me go oooooo, is that so? I check it out on [url="http://www.factcheck.org/"]http://www.factcheck.org/[/url] . Check out the site, about as fair as I can find.

[Carson Weber]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Mar 27 2004, 09:09 PM'] I see all the broken promises in the past and look at him now and ask everytime I see his smirk, is he spining again? His promise and talk on abortion is the same way. [/quote]
Iacobus, I do not see broken promises with regard to abortion.. rather, I see consistently pro-life legislative action being passed that is successively gaining rights for the unborn human being, as I have shown above.

You can make assertions like this, but when I check the facts, the facts say Bush is Pro-Life to a great extent.

[Iacobus]

I am not saying that Bush has every lied or spun about abortion. I am saying that he has broken some promises in other areas important to me (both my parents are teachers) and many others. And when I see vote-getting-no-action promises I look with a kind of cyncism at all other aspects of the platform. When someone makes a promise they need to keep it, they cannot keep some and break others and still have much integarty.