Justifying Contraception

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Deeds' post='1887023' date='Jun 9 2009, 02:07 PM']I know, I was just confirming what cassandragirl said, although it was really a tangent to the purpose of the thread.[/quote]
Got it. And sorry for derailing the thread.

[sweetpea316]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1884757' date='Jun 6 2009, 02:26 AM']Yeah, with charting, I write 2 words on a chart just before shutting down my computer (I chart online).[/quote]
You can chart online?? Nice! I wonder if Creighton does this too...?

And yes, to repeat what's been said already, NFP has been really really easy in my experience too.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='sweetpea316' post='1887044' date='Jun 9 2009, 03:07 PM']You can chart online?? Nice! I wonder if Creighton does this too...?

And yes, to repeat what's been said already, NFP has been really really easy in my experience too.[/quote]
I don't know. I only chart online because I couldn't find a BOM instructor near me, and so I got an instructor on their website. Part of the fee for that is being able to chart online for life. And I still keep in touch with my instructor, 2 years later, even though I'm now training to be an instructor.

[musturde]

I'm only dating barren women from now on. This stuff is too much work.

Edited June 9, 2009 by musturde

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='musturde' post='1887252' date='Jun 9 2009, 09:10 PM']I'm only dating barren women from now on. This stuff is too much work. [/quote]
It really isn't. It can seem like it from the outside, but once you learn it, it isn't much work at all. I'd encourage you to take a class or read up on it. If you want more info on Billings, I can provide it; I'm not much help with Sympto-Thermal or Creighton, though.

[musturde]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1887264' date='Jun 9 2009, 03:18 PM']It really isn't. It can seem like it from the outside, but once you learn it, it isn't much work at all. I'd encourage you to take a class or read up on it. If you want more info on Billings, I can provide it; I'm not much help with Sympto-Thermal or Creighton, though.[/quote]

No, I refuse. I love loopholes. These rules no longer apply to me.

Edited June 9, 2009 by musturde

[Socrates]

[quote name='mortify' post='1877073' date='May 28 2009, 01:39 AM'][b]Edit: perhaps a better title for the thread would be, "Accommodation / toleration of Contraception"[/b]

It's interesting to learn cases of evils being permitted because they are considered a [i]lesser evil[/i] or even requiring toleration to preserve social order. So for example war is a necessary evil in some cases, and even things like prostitution were tolerated in the Medieval ages. St Augustine even said,

[color="#0000FF"]"If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts" [/color]

Now I wonder if this same logic can be applied to an evil such as contraception? We recognize it's use is wrong, but none the less it can be permitted to preserve order.

What do you say?



(As an aside: the Medieval toleration of prostitution: [url="http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/society/sex/prostitution.shtml"][u]http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_S...stitution.shtml[/u][/url])[/quote]
Sorry I'm late to this discussion. Due to a recent move, I've been away from phatmass for a while.

It's not entirely clear what you're asking here.
Contraception can never be *morally* permitted in the same way a just war can (with the exception of rape).
The prostitution example is about whether the state should outlaw prostitution, not that prostitution is ever morally permissible.
While whether contraception should be outlawed by the state can certainly be debated, in our society today that is unlikely to happen anytime soon (and such laws would be very hard to enforce), so that's basically a theoretical question anyway.

I also don't believe that acceptance of contraception actually in fact does prevent "greater evil." All the evidence is to the contrary. Since contraception became widely accepted by society, widespread acceptance and practice of abortion, and of all kinds of sexual immorality followed. Contraception was at first touted as a way to save marriages and keep families together, but after contraception became the dominant accepted practice, divorce rates soared.
The "contraceptive mentality" in which sexual activity is divorced from procreation in society has led to an increase in every sort of immorality and social disorder.

It's not clear what greater evil contraception allegedly prevents, nor what "order" you think it preserves.
Besides, the whole "ends justify the means" ethos is contrary to Catholic moral teaching. One may not do something intrinsically evil in order to "preserve order" or prevent some "greater evil."

[marielapin]

[quote name='musturde' post='1887252' date='Jun 9 2009, 03:10 PM']I'm only dating barren women from now on. This stuff is too much work. [/quote]

It's not much more work than planning out exercise, or a menu for a day or week when going to the store (especially if you are on a special diet).

When you are a parent and are toilet training a toddler you have to remember the last time they went, what it was and estimate how much longer before putting them on the toilet again based on their input. It's not a whole lot harder, but it does take some actual thought.

[mortify]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1884758' date='Jun 6 2009, 03:27 AM']The "challenging part" is to show your spouse how much you love them, not lust them. It is beautiful to think my husband love ME, not just what he can "get from me". If some horrible thing would happen and we could no longer have marital relations, I do not fear my husband leaving me. I mean more to him that just that. That is true love! [/quote]

Great explanation, thanks!

[tinytherese]

I just found out yesterday that my dad apparentally had a visectomy when I was twelve, a few months after my little brother's conception. It really surprised me. Nobody at the time mentioned it and I don't recall dad ever recovering from a surgery. Some of our family was together for the fourth of July and somehow we got onto telling stories and dad told this one about something that happened to him after he got his visectomy.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1911774' date='Jul 5 2009, 02:35 PM']I just found out yesterday that my dad apparentally had a visectomy when I was twelve, a few months after my little brother's conception. It really surprised me. Nobody at the time mentioned it and I don't recall dad ever recovering from a surgery. Some of our family was together for the fourth of July and somehow we got onto telling stories and dad told this one about something that happened to him after he got his visectomy.[/quote]

The older you get, the more little stories you hear about your parents that you wish you hadn't, or just really blow you away. I was in my late 20's before I found out that my parents hadn't actually gotten married until my mom was ready to file for social security. In Oklahoma you can be considered common law married after 6 months, but for the feds to accept a common law, you have to provide letters from friends and family that you have lived as husband and wife. Problem is since it was a big secret, she didn't want to do that, so they went to another county (so the license wouldn't show up in the local paper) to get married before a judge. I only found out when doing her taxes later because I found the receipt for the marriage license. She just looked at me sheepishly and said, "you're a b@stard." One of the few times I was left speechless.

[Christie_M]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1911810' date='Jul 5 2009, 02:08 PM']The older you get, the more little stories you hear about your parents that you wish you hadn't, or just really blow you away. ....[/quote]

I know, seriously. Like with me, I've pretty much always known I wasn't planned, but my parents recently told me (well, more like confessed) that not only was I not planned, but that i wasn't wanted, and that they went to places like PP. Boy, am I glad "Plan B" wasn't around 19 years ago.


and I might as well ask a question since it is relevent to this topic.

does using contraceptives so the couple wont get pregnet again, due to fear of going through more pregnancy risks to both the mother and baby, justify using them?

it's a silly question, I know, but I needed to ask it.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Christie_M' post='1911968' date='Jul 5 2009, 06:47 PM']does using contraceptives so the couple wont get pregnet again, due to fear of going through more pregnancy risks to both the mother and baby, justify using them?

it's a silly question, I know, but I needed to ask it.[/quote]

It's not a silly question. It's one my husband and I have had to go through. My health is such that it is dangerous for me to get pregnant. With my last miscarriage, my blood pressure got dangerously high. I've had a bad brain injury, and high blood pressure can lead to bleeding and swelling in my brain. My OBGYN wanted me to go on the pill, and I refused. He basically fired me as a patient. We do NFP now, and leave it in God's hands. At my age, I shouldn't have to be worrying about it, but the women in my family have a history of having kids late, very late. We would live as brother and sister before I would agree to go on the pill.

[Nihil Obstat]

You wouldn't necessarily know your dad had had a vasectomy; it's such a streamlined procedure these days, I don't even think there's a recovery period. :S