Justifying Contraception

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1881477' date='Jun 2 2009, 07:24 PM']remember children arent for everybody, just as the preist hood isnt, and marriage isnt always.
and there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting only a few children.[/quote]

Except we have to ask ourselves why we only want a few children. Also, I would hate to think a child grows up thinking his or her parents "messed up" and ended up with them. Would it be that bad? And if so, adoption is an option.

Also, it is these people with few children who complain about the state of the world. We are changing it one diaper at a time.

[quote name='musturde' post='1881622' date='Jun 2 2009, 10:45 PM']No, you misunderstood me. The funny thing is, that post was a reply to something you said that I read wrong.[/quote]


I am glad I misunderstood you. I will go back and try to understand it.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Angel*Star

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1881744' date='Jun 3 2009, 01:24 AM']some people take other peoples pregnancies entirely too personally.[/quote]

I think I threaten or intimidate people just by getting pregnant. That is certainly not my objective. I really don't say anything to them, I am just trying to do God's will in our life.

[tinytherese]

My former college roommate was not planned at all by her parents. Her mom had her tubes tied and then something went wrong and they ended up with her. Imagine being considered an accident like that!

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1881744' date='Jun 3 2009, 01:24 AM']yeah those people piss me off. though having more kids doesnt make you a better person either, so the snide comments about people who "can only handle 5 kids etc" are just as unwarranted.

some people take other peoples pregnancies entirely too personally.[/quote]
I heartily agree! And, I probably find it more irritating when people make snide comments about people not having more kids, because only the couple and God know the real reason, and if someone's had a miscarriage or is dealing with a psychological issue or something, those snide remarks are even more hurtful than the ones about people having "too many" kids. I just have heard more often comments about people having too many kids. That, however is probably due to the fact that my old roommate used to make comments like that all the time, or things like, "Yeah, that's why you shouldn't have kids until at least 5 years after your married!" Glad she has all the knowledge in the world about everyone else's life! Here, I thought that was God's job!

[princessgianna]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1882257' date='Jun 3 2009, 03:45 PM'], those snide remarks are even more hurtful than the ones about people having "too many" kids.[/quote]
I disagree! I hold all snide remarks to the level of disgust!

[mortify]

NFP is easier than using a pill or condom? Planning out marital relations at a certain time seems pretty challenging...

[Arpy]

Well, I bet it fosters communication and cooperation more than a strip of rubbery stuff.

[Christie_M]

[quote name='mortify' post='1884525' date='Jun 5 2009, 07:28 PM']NFP is easier than using a pill or condom? Planning out marital relations at a certain time seems pretty challenging...[/quote]


You have to take the pill at the same time every single day. That takes planning.
You to have a condome handy and ready to use--which you might plan for ahead of time by going to the store and buying them. Yes, it [i]might[/i] be challenging (I don't have experience, so I wouldn't know) but NFP also requires the couple to communicate and plan together, not just one person doing all the work.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Arpy' post='1884609' date='Jun 6 2009, 04:37 AM']Well, I bet it fosters communication and cooperation more than a strip of rubbery stuff.[/quote]
Yep. It also fosters more communication than taking a pill daily (speaking from experience).

[quote name='Christie_M' post='1884740' date='Jun 6 2009, 06:33 AM']You have to take the pill at the same time every single day. That takes planning.
You to have a condome handy and ready to use--which you might plan for ahead of time by going to the store and buying them. Yes, it [i]might[/i] be challenging (I don't have experience, so I wouldn't know) but NFP also requires the couple to communicate and plan together, not just one person doing all the work.[/quote]
Yeah, with charting, I write 2 words on a chart just before shutting down my computer (I chart online). My husband looks at it quickly, and that's that. We both know the guidelines for either achieving or postponing pregnancy, and so it's not like there's a nightly debate about whether we can have sex that night. We do discuss whether we can try to conceive every so often, of course, but it's not like there's this long-term planning of (we can have sex next Tuesday at 9pm). This is especially true since there's no calendar calculations with Billings - fertility is assessed on a daily basis.

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='mortify' post='1884525' date='Jun 5 2009, 09:28 PM']NFP is easier than using a pill or condom? Planning out marital relations at a certain time seems pretty challenging...[/quote]

The "challenging part" is to show your spouse how much you love them, not lust them. It is beautiful to think my husband love ME, not just what he can "get from me". If some horrible thing would happen and we could no longer have marital relations, I do not fear my husband leaving me. I mean more to him that just that. That is true love!

[cassandragirl]

[quote name='mortify' post='1877073' date='May 28 2009, 12:39 AM'][b]Edit: perhaps a better title for the thread would be, "Accommodation / toleration of Contraception"[/b]

It's interesting to learn cases of evils being permitted because they are considered a [i]lesser evil[/i] or even requiring toleration to preserve social order. So for example war is a necessary evil in some cases, and even things like prostitution were tolerated in the Medieval ages. St Augustine even said,

[color="#0000FF"]"If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts" [/color]

Now I wonder if this same logic can be applied to an evil such as contraception? We recognize it's use is wrong, but none the less it can be permitted to preserve order.

What do you say?



(As an aside: the Medieval toleration of prostitution: [url="http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/society/sex/prostitution.shtml"][u]http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_S...stitution.shtml[/u][/url])[/quote]

Actually, there was an instance a while back where contraception was allowed - there were nuns in some country in south america and they were in great danger of rape and murder given where they served so they were allowed to use contraception to prevent conception in the event of rape. The difference was that they were not married and this would have been something truly forced upon them ( I do not recall the country but I remember reading about it.) Also, strictly speaking war is not always a sin - the basis for a just war goes to the right of self defense - there are specific rules on when a war can be waged justly but it is not always a sin. Whereas contraception for the express purpose of preventing concetion during the marital act is always wrong. (at least that is how I understand it)

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='cassandragirl' post='1886765' date='Jun 9 2009, 02:30 AM']Actually, there was an instance a while back where contraception was allowed - there were nuns in some country in south america and they were in great danger of rape and murder given where they served so they were allowed to use contraception to prevent conception in the event of rape. The difference was that they were not married and this would have been something truly forced upon them ( I do not recall the country but I remember reading about it.) Also, strictly speaking war is not always a sin - the basis for a just war goes to the right of self defense - there are specific rules on when a war can be waged justly but it is not always a sin. Whereas contraception for the express purpose of preventing concetion during the marital act is always wrong. (at least that is how I understand it)[/quote]
Could you find the source please? Since the Church does not allow for abortion in any case, including rape, I fail to see how the Church would allow a woman to take contraceptives in case of rape. Especially when the pill occasionally causes abortion by preventing an embryo from implanting in the uterine wall.

[Deeds]

This is true, although I don't have time to search for a source, but I have seen one before. The Church requires openness to life in consensual intercourse; obviously rape is a wholly different circumstance and a woman is not obliged to enable the conception of a rapist's child. I believe this was in the 60s, when the first generation pills merely prevented ovulation without hindering implantation.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Deeds' post='1886984' date='Jun 9 2009, 10:07 AM']This is true, although I don't have time to search for a source, but I have seen one before. The Church requires openness to life in consensual intercourse; obviously rape is a wholly different circumstance and a woman is not obliged to enable the conception of a rapist's child. I believe this was in the 60s, when the first generation pills merely prevented ovulation without hindering implantation.[/quote]
But what about today? The hormone levels in the pill now are much lower, and therefore are much more likely to cause an early abortion. The mini pill doesn't prevent ovulation most of the time, but instead changes cervical mucus and prevents implantation.

[Deeds]

I know, I was just confirming what cassandragirl said, although it was really a tangent to the purpose of the thread.