Justifying Contraception

[Jesus_lol]

mostly because it actually doesnt work very well.


[quote name='tinytherese' post='1877388' date='May 28 2009, 03:11 PM']Using contraception is very dangerous. There are serious medical side affects and is not as effective as their companies claim that they are. Contraception also has negative affects on the people involved. It hurts the people involved physically, emotionally, and spiritually so why do it?[/quote]

i fail to see how exactly condoms hurt physically. unless you use one ten sizes too small and cut off all blood flow , but at that point you would have to be dumb enough to end up in the darwin awards.

[quote name='musturde' post='1878352' date='May 30 2009, 12:22 AM']I'm finding it hard to believe this logic.
NFP is allowed but condoms are not.[/quote]

thats because it isnt really logic. its a way of doing what someone else tells you and then trying to make it sound logical.
i have a hard time beleiving NFP is that effective, or condoms that ineffective. it depends entirel on what website you get your figures. personally i would trust the certified medical sites only. regardless, i find it funny that that is used as a deterrance to using condoms
"dont use condoms! they prevent babies, which is bad. so you shouldnt use them. also, they dont work anyways, so dont use them! "

[Hassan]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1880067' date='Jun 1 2009, 01:25 AM']thats because it isnt really logic. its a way of doing what someone else tells you and then trying to make it sound logical.[/quote]

[Christie_M]

[quote name='musturde' post='1878431' date='May 30 2009, 10:10 AM']...

The STD problem hasn't fully been answered. Do people not know or is the real answer that the other person must have unprotected or no sex in that situation? I was always taught in theology class that as long as the protein went in the right place, you're a-okay on whatever you do. Therefore, I guess someone could use a condom, take it out and go long distance. I'm being serious. Would this be sound?[/quote]

I'm not exacly sure about what you're asking, but I'll try to answer to my best knowledge.
From what I've been taught by my mom, people (i.e. married couples) must not do anything that would hurt the other or in a sense, 'dirty' them, so IMHO using a condem if one partner has an STD would be wrong. There's always that chance (and there are other threads on this with the Pope in it) that the virus will be passed on to the next person--so abstaining from sex would be the best thing the couple could do. I mean, seriously, if you truly love someone, would you really want to give them a horrible disease like ghoneria? or worse... HIV or aids?
I know I wouldn't.





[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1880067' date='May 31 2009, 11:25 PM']mostly because it actually doesnt work very well.


...[/quote]

or mostly because they wanted twelve children or didn't chart very well or many other things

Edited June 1, 2009 by Christie_M

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1879495' date='May 31 2009, 10:31 PM']Some couples don't use NFP... they often have twelve kids [/quote]
And that's great if they can do that.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1880067' date='Jun 1 2009, 06:25 AM']mostly because it actually doesnt work very well.[/quote] Actually, the effectiveness of natural methods, both in achieving and postponing pregnancy, has been shown to be quite high.


[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1880067' date='Jun 1 2009, 06:25 AM']i fail to see how exactly condoms hurt physically. unless you use one ten sizes too small and cut off all blood flow , but at that point you would have to be dumb enough to end up in the darwin awards. [/quote] If you are speaking of physically hurting another, there are, of course, some with latex allergies. I know from examining various charts in my coursework (I'm training to be a Billings Ovulation Method instructor) that using a condom disrupts the chart due to irritating the cells of the vagina, and thus could be said to be hurting the woman. However, the main argument against condoms isn't that they cause physical pain, but that they seek to circumvent the couple's fertility and actively sterlise the sex act. It doesn't matter how effective or ineffective condoms are, since the intent is still to sterilise the sex act.


[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1880067' date='Jun 1 2009, 06:25 AM']thats because it isnt really logic. its a way of doing what someone else tells you and then trying to make it sound logical.
i have a hard time beleiving NFP is that effective, or condoms that ineffective. it depends entirel on what website you get your figures. personally i would trust the certified medical sites only. regardless, i find it funny that that is used as a deterrance to using condoms
"dont use condoms! they prevent babies, which is bad. so you shouldnt use them. also, they dont work anyways, so dont use them! "[/quote]
Would you trust the WHO? They have done studies to show the effectiveness of various family planning methods, NFP and contraceptives. [url="http://www.billings-ovulation-method.org.au/act/trials.shtml"]Here's a link from the Billings site[/url] of various trials, and it includes the one from the WHO, which found it to be 97.2% effective overall (some of the trial countries found it to be 100%, some 95% - there's obviously going to be fluctuation as some follow the guidelines more than others, as with any method).

[url="http://who.int/reproductive-health/publications/spr/spr_effectiveness_method.html"]Here's a link from the WHO[/url] giving a brief run-down of various planning methods. They differentiate between perfect use and typical use, since few couples follow the guidelines of any method completely, be it forgetting to take a pill, or just choosing to "take a chance" during a time of increased fertility. They've lumped together all natural methods under "periodic abstinence", though they've broken them down a bit under the "perfect use" column. Unfortunately they didn't break it down under the "typical use" column, and I imagine that number is higher due to them including the calendar method, since it isn't as effective, especially if the woman has irregular cycles.

Of course, in my opinion, the effectiveness of NFP is just a perk, but doesn't matter really in discussing the morality of different options. The bottom line is that any method that seeks to circumvent the procreative aspect of sex or which hinders the unitive aspect of sex is not a moral option.

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='musturde' post='1878431' date='May 30 2009, 12:10 PM']Basically the only difference between the two to me is that the condom is less natural. Is that the real argument? If so, then it makes more sense. Also, if condoms are not 100% effective, then the procreative aspect is only diminished, not destroyed. Correct? If that is true, to a certain degree NFP must diminish the procreative aspect to a certain degree as well. No matter how natural the process may be, the intention remains. If a poor family can't afford another kid, why would it matter which process the family used if both of them diminish the procreative aspect? Is it just that NFP diminishes less?[/quote]

Is this woman his wife or his play toy? If a man uses condoms or a woman the pill can't they cheat on their spouse and "not get caught?" Using NFP one would actually have to get to know the other person and the woman's cycle; no one night stand!



[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1879495' date='May 31 2009, 05:31 PM']Some couples don't use NFP... they often have twelve kids [/quote]

Why are people in this country so afraid of a baby? Come on, this country and others are in grave danger because people are not having children. Where is their trust and faith in God?

Why get married if you don't "know each other"? There are solid reasons to get married in the Catholic Church. No, one of them is not for pretty pictures. Two of them are to help each other attain heaven (hardly accomplished by "using" the other for a toy) and the other is to procreate.

If our Heavenly Father wanted to give us a great gift of say $100,000.00 who would say no? Then when He wants to give us the greatest gift of all, the gift of life, we refuse?

I'd be a rich woman if I had a nickel for every person who said to me "I would have had more except........" I have heard all the reasons. college, boats, I just can't handle more (how do they know that?) Why do we owe our children a college education? Who says they wouldn't rather have another sibling? Figuring out and working for college can be a huge step into the real world. A boat is a duh! If we had another baby, we couldn't use our boat for next summer (but think of the memories with the baby you helped create?) and most of the people who say they can't handle any more are trying to raise children as a hobby.

I know I sound judgmental but it is not easy being the only family in a large parish with more than three kids. I don't really care, though. I don't need to answer to my neighbors, I must someday answer to God. Not every family is called to have millions of kids. But how do we know that unless we are open to His will, not ours. Maybe He only wants us to have two children. Maybe He will expand our horizons and bless us with dozens! We are a rich family - rich with children. We are never bored, always enjoy a dinner out because it is not the norm, my children get along because they have so many to choose from, we do go on vacations - we camp! and have lots of fun family nights. Watermelon never goes bad in our house, nor do we waste food of any kind. They are well mannered because after all, how else could we "handle them all"?

So, why contracept? Frankly, I am grateful for the church's teaching of Humane Vitae. It has protected us. Yes, at first we blindly obeyed. Now I see the great wisdom of Mother Church and I am grateful. Each night at dinner I count my blessings, and they are many.

Why are we so afraid of a baby?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1879545' date='May 31 2009, 08:37 PM']Oh goodness, I was giving a random example. I am not married or anything.[/quote]

I know... it sounded like you were feeling guilty for possibly not having a "grave enough" reason for practicing NFP when you are married, or falling for that line of thinking that NFP isn't "ideal."

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1880153' date='Jun 1 2009, 04:57 AM']Why are people in this country so afraid of a baby? Come on, this country and others are in grave danger because people are not having children. Where is their trust and faith in God?

So, why contracept? Frankly, I am grateful for the church's teaching of Humane Vitae. It has protected us. Yes, at first we blindly obeyed. Now I see the great wisdom of Mother Church and I am grateful. Each night at dinner I count my blessings, and they are many.

Why are we so afraid of a baby?[/quote]
Because we are selfish.

[musturde]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1880153' date='Jun 1 2009, 03:57 AM']So, why contracept? Frankly, I am grateful for the church's teaching of Humane Vitae. It has protected us. Yes, at first we blindly obeyed. Now I see the great wisdom of Mother Church and I am grateful. Each night at dinner I count my blessings, and they are many.

Why are we so afraid of a baby?[/quote]

Exactly! Besides, the more babies we have, the more influence we have in society.

Edited June 1, 2009 by musturde

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1880067' date='Jun 1 2009, 01:25 AM']mostly because it actually doesnt work very well.[/quote]
Or because they wanted twelve kids...you can't tell me they're spaced almost exactly two years apart by accident.

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1880587' date='Jun 1 2009, 08:35 PM']Or because they wanted twelve kids...you can't tell me they're spaced almost exactly two years apart by accident.[/quote]

My first four children are about 2 years apart. It has everything to do ecological nursing. For those that do not understand ecological nursing, it is nursing a baby without bottles at all. This helps the mother's body to realize she has a baby and suppresses her cycles until the baby doesn't nurse quite so much. This can be 6 months or longer than one year. It is only then her cycles return and she can get pregnant again. Of course, this takes another 9 months which add up to about two years. Isn't God wonderful? In His precise ways He protects moms from having babies every 9 months. Of course, we have to do things HIS way, not OURS! For further information on this or NFP check out Couple to Couple League.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1880587' date='Jun 1 2009, 06:35 PM']Or because they wanted twelve kids...you can't tell me they're spaced almost exactly two years apart by accident.[/quote]

oh, you didnt say the whole two years spaced thing in your post.

i believe that NFP can work. but unfortunately its complicated. so while all the people who have enough brains to use it arent having many babies, all the people who dont know their own arse from a hole in the ground are populating the planet.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1880738' date='Jun 1 2009, 11:16 PM']oh, you didnt say the whole two years spaced thing in your post.

i believe that NFP can work. but unfortunately its complicated. so while all the people who have enough brains to use it arent having many babies, all the people who dont know their own arse from a hole in the ground are populating the planet.[/quote]
I will admit that there are some people who have miscounted and ended up with an unexpected baby, but there are plenty of babies out there who were unexpected due to contraceptive failure. But yeah, the point I was trying to make in that post was really more in response to Resurexi, because NFP isn't just used to not have babies, but also to MAKE babies.

And NFP isn't nearly as complicated as a lot of people are led to believe. While you do actually have to put a little extra effort into initially learning it, it isn't much harder than remembering to take a pill every day.

I have to say, I find it hard to believe that people who don't know their own arse from a hole in the ground are able to figure out how to make babies.

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1880738' date='Jun 1 2009, 11:16 PM']oh, you didnt say the whole two years spaced thing in your post.

i believe that NFP can work. but unfortunately its complicated. so while all the people who have enough brains to use it arent having many babies, all the people who dont know their own arse from a hole in the ground are populating the planet.[/quote]

It is not complicated at all. If you can learn the alphabet, you can learn NFP.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1880762' date='Jun 2 2009, 12:31 AM']It is not complicated at all. If you can learn the alphabet, you can learn NFP.[/quote]
Its a lot easier than trying to remember to take a pill...

[Christie_M]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1880797' date='Jun 1 2009, 09:48 PM']Its a lot easier than trying to remember to take a pill...[/quote]

or messing around with a condem....