tinytherese Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1878474' date='May 30 2009, 01:19 PM']Also, std question not answered .[/quote] [url="http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&entryid=67"]http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php...&entryid=67[/url] [url="http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&entryid=313"]http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php...amp;entryid=313[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 [quote name='tinytherese' post='1878509' date='May 30 2009, 02:18 PM'][url="http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&entryid=67"]http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php...&entryid=67[/url] [url="http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&entryid=313"]http://www.chastity.com/chastity/index.php...amp;entryid=313[/url][/quote] Thanks, that still doesn't answer my question though. That only answers if I want to use a condom "just in case" not if I know my spouse has HIV. The site even admits that condoms would help prevent infection if the other member has HIV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1878505' date='May 30 2009, 07:56 PM']Alright that makes more sense. Thanks.[/quote] You're welcome. Took me awhile to understand it at first, so I understand where you're coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 [quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1878357' date='May 30 2009, 03:10 AM']This is because condoms seek to circumvent the couple's fertility, thus interfering with the procreative aspect of sex. It also inserts a barrier between the couple, thus interfering with the unitive aspect of sex. If a woman is charting, she simply has knowledge of when she is naturally more or less fertile. If the couple chooses to abstain during the fertile time because they have just reasons for postponing another pregnancy, their sex is still unitive and procreative, because they have done nothing to their bodies to prevent conception should it occur, even though conception is less likely at that moment. The couple's knowledge of the woman's cycle can also be of help when they are trying to conceive, since they would know when she is fertile.[/quote] I don't think I will ever really understand this argument. In enumerated form, what is wrong with Birth Control? From what I have gained the claim is it seeks to circumvent a woman's fertility and destroyes the unitive aspect of sex. I don't see how the unitive aspect is relevent when speaking about the pill. Regarding circumvention I don't know exactly what that means. What exactly is circumventing fertility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) i think the only consistent catholics, are those who say no to natural family planning. contraception v. NFP isn't much different, if contraception is used responsibly, when purposes are examined as to why the CC says 'no contraception' etc. ive explained this too much in the past to explain right now, though. ya can archive search if ya really wanna see my position. (plus im sorta busy right now. ) i dont like conclusory statements, that's why i qualify. Edited May 31, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1878587' date='May 30 2009, 10:41 PM']In enumerated form, what is wrong with Birth Control? From what I have gained the claim is it seeks to circumvent a woman's fertility and destroyes the unitive aspect of sex. I don't see how the unitive aspect is relevent when speaking about the pill.[/quote] The Pill can be said to destroy the unitive aspect because the woman is withholding part of herself - her fertility - from the sexual embrace. The Pill also presents other problems in that it can damage the cervix after prolonged use, and can prevent implantation of an embryo in the event that the woman does ovulate and conceive. [quote name='Hassan' post='1878587' date='May 30 2009, 10:41 PM']Regarding circumvention I don't know exactly what that means. What exactly is circumventing fertility?[/quote] circumvention (plural: circumventions) 1. The act of evading by going around (bypassing). 2. The act of prevailing over another by arts, address, or fraud; deception; fraud; imposture; delusion. I am using the first definition. When a couple uses contraception, they are trying to get around their natural fertility by purposefully trying to sterilise the sex act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Couples who use contraception are also known for have a far greater divorce rate than those who use NFP. I heard about these couples that were at a get together and the ones that were using contraception in their marriage had complaints. The wives felt like objects being used by their husbands because since they were sterilizing themselves to them they were always sexually available. So the wives started refusing them and grew to not trust their husbands as much resenting them for using them and the husbands meanwhile felt like they had to beg for sex from their wives. Yet the couples using NFP testified that they had very satisfying sex lives. Some of the things that I like about NFP is that it really pushes a married couple to communicate and the times that they do sacrifice participating in the marital embrace on a certain day or a set of a few days because of their current circumstances that they grow in their love for love is wishing and doing what is best for another or for multiple people even to the point of sacrifice. Besides, it trains them in self mastery when need be so that they do not become slaves to birth control but are free in using self control. By the way, soon Jason Evert will be coming out with a new booklet about NFP called "Pure Intimacy." He also has a recorded talk called "Why NFP?" for explaining the benefits for such a practice. I'm sure about the question regarding if contraceptions are acceptable if one or both spouses has an s.t.d., particularly HIV. Perhaps a moral theologian can answer that one. I've thought about it before but since I am not even seeing anyone who contracted a disease like that I haven't really been motivated to seek out what I should do in that circumstance. Edited May 31, 2009 by tinytherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 [quote name='mortify' post='1878242' date='May 30 2009, 12:29 AM']Yes, that's true, but the point is certain sins were tolerated. Maybe there is an in between, where we can acknowledge the sin of contraception and still tolerate it?[/quote] I don't think "tolerated" is the right verb to describe the situation of prostitution in the Middle Ages, as described in the article you linked to. Prostitutes and their clients obviously promoted the sin and I'm sure many people who weren't directly involved effectively tolerated it by their silence, but the Church as a spiritual body in the world did not tolerate prostitution. As the article acknowledged, religious orders worked among prostitutes to encourage their conversion... that's not toleration. [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1878221' date='May 29 2009, 11:51 PM']Btw... it seems many have forgotten that there is barrier contraception (i.e. condoms), so it would leave all the talk about the Pill a moot point.[/quote] Yes, contraception is as much a mindset and attitude as it is a method. NFP can be used with a contraceptive mentality, which isn't much better than taking a pill or using a condom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1878631' date='May 30 2009, 09:07 PM']i think the only consistent catholics, are those who say no to natural family planning. contraception v. NFP isn't much different, if contraception is used responsibly, when purposes are examined as to why the CC says 'no contraception' etc.[/quote] So St. Paul was wrong? "Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control." -1 Cor 7:5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Some couples don't use NFP... they often have twelve kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1878399' date='May 30 2009, 12:20 PM']The whole "grave reason" is always debated over in NFP discussions. It makes me feel as if Catholic couples who have enough money to support a child but have just gotten married and are adjusting (if they are both psychologically and emotionally healthy there is clearly no "grave reason" here) should abstain from sex entirely or should come together sparingly, since using NFP during this time would probably constitute "abuse."[/quote] There is no grounds for that conclusion. Each couple must discern through prayer and advice from a priest, deacon, and other faithful couples what is best for their own situation. Something that important cannot be hashed out over a message board. It's fine to discuss circumstances, but other people can't make that decision for you. Don't let people guilt trip you into a stance just because they think it's right. Your reasons for practicing NFP are a gray area... it's not black and white like contraception or abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1879495' date='May 31 2009, 06:31 PM']Some couples don't use NFP... they often have twelve kids [/quote] And some couples don't, but are only gifted with one child... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Alright, So are condoms allowed if the man finishes in the right spot long distance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1879501' date='May 31 2009, 05:36 PM']There is no grounds for that conclusion. Each couple must discern through prayer and advice from a priest, deacon, and other faithful couples what is best for their own situation. Something that important cannot be hashed out over a message board. It's fine to discuss circumstances, but other people can't make that decision for you. Don't let people guilt trip you into a stance just because they think it's right. Your reasons for practicing NFP are a gray area... it's not black and white like contraception or abortion.[/quote] Oh goodness, I was giving a random example. I am not married or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1879495' date='May 31 2009, 05:31 PM']Some couples don't use NFP... they often have twelve kids [/quote] And some couples do use NFP...they often have twelve kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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