Is Heaven A Physical Place?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1881625' date='Jun 2 2009, 08:46 PM']The new bodies of the resurrection are spiritual (1 Cor 15) as well as physical, so they are designed to dwell with God in Heaven beyond Time and Place, as they are also designed to dwell in the New Earth which will be an actual Place, and in which Time will continue.[/quote]
I said nothing about heaven being a geographical location, but simply that it is physical because the resurrected bodies of the saints are physical.

The "spiritual body" that St. Paul speaks about is not immaterial or non-physical; instead, it is the same physical body that one had prior to death supernaturally reconstituted and governed by the Spirit, who energetically dwells within the deified man. That said, I wrote a paper in response to the errors of one of my professors on this topic years ago, which can be read by clicking the link below:

[url="http://sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/paper01"][i][b]St. Paul and the Resurrection of the Body[/b][/i][/url]

Edited June 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1882822' date='Jun 4 2009, 04:21 AM']I said nothing about heaven being a geographical location, but simply that it is physical because the resurrected bodies of the saints are physical.

The "spiritual body" that St. Paul speaks about is not immaterial or non-physical; instead, it is the same physical body that one had prior to death supernaturally reconstituted and governed by the Spirit, who energetically dwells within the deified man. That said, I wrote a paper in response to the errors of one of my professors on this topic years ago, which can be read by clicking the link below:

[url="http://sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/paper01"][i][b]St. Paul and the Resurrection of the Body[/b][/i][/url][/quote]
I was trying to assert that even though the resurrected bodies of the just, which retain a physical aspect, dwell in Heaven; Heaven is non-physical, it is completely beyond the physical. So how the bodies of the just are able to be in a non-physical realm is a mystery.

I agree that the resurrected bodies (physical) are completely subject to the soul (spiritual), and the soul is completely subject to God. So in the sense of the bodies total subjection to anything the soul and ultimately God wills is the sense that the resurrected body is spiritual.

In the resurrection do you believe we possess the same bodies than on earth only in a glorified form?

[MithLuin]

Yes, I think we all agree that when Jesus rose from the dead, he was no ghost.

[quote]I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, [b]the resurrection of the body,[/b] and the life everlasting.[/quote]

Jesus' body was real - he could cook and eat fish, you could touch the wounds in his hands and side. So, certainly tangible, physical. But at the same time...he could be in a room when a moment before, all the doors were locked. He was different enough that people who knew him well did not immediately recognize him. And yet human enough that no one reacted as if an angel had appeared. The disciples on the road to Emmaus took him for a fellow pilgrim. Mary Magdalene thought he was the gardner. Whatever a spiritualized body may or may not be, it is not strictly ethereal. It has physicality and substance to it.

But of course you can't get to heaven in a spaceship. So, while it may have some sort of physical reality to it, it's not...in this plane of existence. Space and time have to mean different things in the light of eternity. The promise of a new heaven and a new earth suggests that this reality will be brought into that reality, but I hesitate to say too much. After all, there's really no way I can understand how heaven 'works' while I'm here.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1882915' date='Jun 4 2009, 09:01 AM']I was trying to assert that even though the resurrected bodies of the just, which retain a physical aspect, dwell in Heaven; Heaven is non-physical, it is completely beyond the physical. So how the bodies of the just are able to be in a non-physical realm is a mystery.

I agree that the resurrected bodies (physical) are completely subject to the soul (spiritual), and the soul is completely subject to God. So in the sense of the bodies total subjection to anything the soul and ultimately God wills is the sense that the resurrected body is spiritual.[/quote]
The tri-hypostatic God Himself is heaven, and so the experience of God, which the saints enjoy, is both physical and spiritual because they are both physical and spiritual. That is as much as I believe as an Eastern Christian.

[quote name='kafka' post='1882915' date='Jun 4 2009, 09:01 AM']In the resurrection do you believe we possess the same bodies than on earth only in a glorified form?[/quote]
Yes, the resurrected bodies of the saints are the same bodies -- glorified and perfected -- that they had during their earthly sojourn.

[MissyP89]

Pretty much what MithLuin said.

I am of the personal opinion that heaven, hell and purgatory are states of being, but if I am wrong, I have no problem going to a physical place.

[Quantum_Entity]

Short answer: Yes and No (Mostly yes).

Long answer (Hold onto your socks!):

In my opinion, Heaven exists in a physical and spiritual state. However, it probably differs from our state of being. Heaven could exist in a quantum state in relation to our universe, one that is linked to our space-time, but is also a different space-time body in its own right. Heaven (and Hell) could be considered 'meta-verses', I suppose, as opposed to a standard physical universe, such as our own. Thus, even if one subscribes to the theory of multiple realities and universes (we're moving into sci-fi ground here...), Heaven, as a physical/spiritual meta-verse, would exist in all spaces and all times regardless of one's point of reference.

This would fit with God's omnipresent state, in which He exists in all places and all times. For God, there is no past or future, no near and far, physical or immaterial, for Him it is always the present as all eras and locations, regardless of distance, are equally accessible. Thus, as God is a being that transcends space-time in His own right, I would assume that the realm in which He resides would exist in a similar state.

Now, the 'no' part of my answer applies only to our universe, that is, our point of reference. To the earth and our universe, Heaven is NOT physical, for it does not (to our knowledge) occupy a designated physical space in our universe (like the Earth, moon, Jupiter, Milky Way, Kuiper Belt, etc.). However, it may be linked to our universe via a spiritual or 'transcendental' means.

When we transcend our physical forms after death (pre-Resurrection) we undergo a change from matter to energy (physical to spiritual) and enter Heaven. When Christ returns and initiates the Resurrection, Heaven may then become physical to our universe, as our universe may be reformed, or even fused with the meta-verse that is Heaven. At that point our bodies may return to a physical/spiritual state, such as they are now, but with less of an emphasis on the body, such as we presently know.

That was a really long-winded and...well, crazy answer. If you don't follow me, that's alright. I think I've been watching too much of 'Noein: To Your Other Self,' which is an anime dealing with parallel universes and quantum physics.

Then again, I guess I am Quantum_Entity for a reason. I have spoken.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1883298' date='Jun 4 2009, 02:52 PM']I am of the personal opinion that heaven, hell and purgatory are states of being, but if I am wrong, I have no problem going to a physical place.[/quote]
Just to make clear my position: I believe that heaven and hell are physical in the sense that the saints and the damned both have immortal physical bodies, but that does not mean that I see heaven and hell as geographical [i]places[/i].

Edited June 5, 2009 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='Quantum_Entity' post='1883453' date='Jun 4 2009, 08:15 PM']Short answer: Yes and No (Mostly yes).

Long answer (Hold onto your socks!):

In my opinion, Heaven exists in a physical and spiritual state. However, it probably differs from our state of being. Heaven could exist in a quantum state in relation to our universe, one that is linked to our space-time, but is also a different space-time body in its own right. Heaven (and Hell) could be considered 'meta-verses', I suppose, as opposed to a standard physical universe, such as our own. Thus, even if one subscribes to the theory of multiple realities and universes (we're moving into sci-fi ground here...), Heaven, as a physical/spiritual meta-verse, would exist in all spaces and all times regardless of one's point of reference.

This would fit with God's omnipresent state, in which He exists in all places and all times. For God, there is no past or future, no near and far, physical or immaterial, for Him it is always the present as all eras and locations, regardless of distance, are equally accessible. Thus, as God is a being that transcends space-time in His own right, I would assume that the realm in which He resides would exist in a similar state.

Now, the 'no' part of my answer applies only to our universe, that is, our point of reference. To the earth and our universe, Heaven is NOT physical, for it does not (to our knowledge) occupy a designated physical space in our universe (like the Earth, moon, Jupiter, Milky Way, Kuiper Belt, etc.). However, it may be linked to our universe via a spiritual or 'transcendental' means.

When we transcend our physical forms after death (pre-Resurrection) we undergo a change from matter to energy (physical to spiritual) and enter Heaven. When Christ returns and initiates the Resurrection, Heaven may then become physical to our universe, as our universe may be reformed, or even fused with the meta-verse that is Heaven. At that point our bodies may return to a physical/spiritual state, such as they are now, but with less of an emphasis on the body, such as we presently know.

That was a really long-winded and...well, crazy answer. If you don't follow me, that's alright. I think I've been watching too much of 'Noein: To Your Other Self,' which is an anime dealing with parallel universes and quantum physics.

Then again, I guess I am Quantum_Entity for a reason. I have spoken.[/quote]
Good thoughts. Good effort. You might want to consider and add into your thoughts the truth that after the General Resurrection God creates a New Heaven and a New Earth, described in Isaiah, the Epistle of Peter, and Revelation. You might want to read up on those verses and incorporate them into your speculations. I think the New Heaven and New Earth will be fused, in that the Elect will freely be able to descend (to New Earth) and ascend (to New Heaven) between the two according to God's will.

I'm not sure Heaven or Hell could be described as a meta-verse, and I'm not familiar with physics, but I dont like this sort of speculation and meditation on Heaven. Maybe in the future new discoveries in science or philosophy will help aid us describe the nature of Heaven better, but ultimately the best sources is Divine Revelation.