The Creed

[Apotheoun]

It is important to remember that Rome is not the only petrine see, for as Pope St. Gregory the Great said:

“Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has grown strong in authority, which in three places [i.e., Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch] is the See of one. For he himself exalted the See in which he deigned even to rest and end the present life. He himself adorned the See to which he sent his disciple as evangelist. He himself established the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for seven years. [i][b]Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside[/b][/i], whatever good I hear of you, this I impute to myself. If you believe anything good of me, impute this to your merits, since we are one in Him Who says, 'That they all may be one, as You, Father, art in me, and I in you that they also may be one in us.'” [[i]Registrum Epistolarum[/i], Book VII, 40]

[Apotheoun]

Some of my reasons for rejecting the idea that the local Western Church councils are ecumenical, which Resurrexi has still not responded to with any kind of coherent argument to support his claims, are given at the post linked below:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=95012&view=findpost&p=1891102"][u]Melkites[/u][/url]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1895090' date='Jun 18 2009, 05:59 AM']If Roman Catholics insist that Florence (and Lyon II and Trent) are truly ecumenical, it follows that the Scholastic formulations advocated at those particular synods of the Roman Church move from simply being erroneous to being truly heretical. Luckily no one at Phatmass has the authority to say that those councils are ecumenical, and so far the Pope has not seen fit to enforce such a viewpoint upon my Patriarch or upon the Melkite Holy Synod, should he decide to do that, it would throw the Melkite Church, and many other Eastern Catholic Churches into turmoil, and they have already lost significant numbers of faithful to the Orthodox, and I would hate to see that exodus increase.[/quote]

Even if the Council of Florence were not ecumenical (It certainly is: the Supreme Pontiffs have constantly reiterated this truth.), its dogmatic definition that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son would be considered an example of papal infallibility, since [i]Laetentur Caeli [/i](the decree for the Greeks) was a papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1895094' date='Jun 18 2009, 06:29 AM']Some of my reasons for rejecting the idea that the local Western Church councils are ecumenical, which Resurrexi has still not responded to with any kind of coherent argument to support his claims, are given at the post linked below:[/quote]

The fact that the Popes have constantly affirmed that Florence, Trent, Vatican I, Vatican II, etc. are ecumenical councils a good reason to accept them as ecumenical.

"And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."

Edited June 18, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1895098' date='Jun 18 2009, 04:42 AM']The fact that the Popes have constantly affirmed that Florence, Trent, Vatican I, Vatican II, etc. are ecumenical councils a good reason to accept them as ecumenical.

"And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."[/quote]
As I have said before, you and I have very different ideas about the nature and authority of the papacy.

I reject Trent's view that the original sin involves the transmission of guilt from parent to child, and I also reject Trent's view that the grace of "justification" is not God's very own justice, but is some kind of "created" justice, etc.

Nothing created can divinize a man, and to say that this is even possible is to embrace both the Arian and Pneumatomachian positions on the Trinity and salvation. There is no such thing as "created" grace.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1895097' date='Jun 18 2009, 04:40 AM']Even if the Council of Florence were not ecumenical (It certainly is: the Supreme Pontiffs have constantly reiterated this truth.), its dogmatic definition that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son would be considered an example of papal infallibility, since [i]Laetentur Caeli [/i](the decree for the Greeks) was a papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV.[/quote]
Florence, contrary to be scripture and patristic tradition, confuses the [i]ekporeusis[/i] of the Spirit from the Father, with the [i]proienai[/i] of the Spirit's energies from the Father through the Son. That said, I can never accept its decrees as binding in faith.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

As far as [i]theosis[/i] is concerned, I agree with St. Gregory Palamas who said:

"According to the divine Maximos, the Logos of well-being, by grace is present unto the worthy, bearing God, Who is by nature above all beginning and end, Who makes those who by nature have a beginning and an end become by grace without beginning and without end, because the Great Paul also, no longer living the life in time, but the divine and eternal life of the indwelling Logos, became by grace without beginning and without end; and Melchisedek had neither beginning of days, nor end of life, not because of his created nature, according to which he began and ceased to exist, but because of the divine and uncreated and eternal grace which is above all nature and time, being from the eternal God. Paul, therefore, was created only as long as he lived the life created from non-being by the command of God. But when he no longer lived this life, but that which is present by the indwelling of God, he became uncreated by grace, as did also Melchisedek and everyone who comes to possess the Logos of God, alone living and acting within himself." [St. Gregory Palamas, "Third Letter to Akindynos"]

[Resurrexi]

Palamas, whom I do not regard as a Saint, did not die in external communion with the Holy Roman Church.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1895117' date='Jun 18 2009, 05:54 AM']Palamas, whom I do not regard as a Saint, did not die in external communion with the Holy Roman Church.[/quote]
I will offer prayers for your continued enlightenment and spiritual growth in front of my icon of St. Gregory Palamas in the morning.

[Resurrexi]

I will ask the intercession of Pope St. Pius V that you accept the infallible dogmas defined by the Council of Trent, as well as the dogmas of the primacy and infallibility of the Supreme Pontiff, the office which he held during his earthly life.

[Nihil Obstat]

Apotheoun, according to Eastern Catholicism, could a council be considered ecumenical if it included Eastern Catholic but not Eastern Orthodox bishops?

Edited June 18, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Patrick]

I find it interesting that Apotheoun's idea of spiritual health is "continued enlightenment and spiritual growth", whereas Resurrexi's is a mental acceptance of various tenets of belief and of authorities. In this way, Resurrexi is closer to being a Protestant than Orthodox. (And Catholics say that the only thing standing in the way of reunion with Orthodox is schism!)

Edited June 18, 2009 by Patrick

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1895311' date='Jun 18 2009, 02:25 PM']I find it interesting that Apotheoun's idea of spiritual health is "continued enlightenment and spiritual growth", whereas Resurrexi's is a mental acceptance of various tenets of belief and of authorities. In this way, Resurrexi is closer to being a Protestant than Orthodox. (And Catholics say that the only thing standing in the way of reunion with Orthodox is schism!)[/quote]

Taking Apo and Rex out of the picture. The reverse is actually true. Protestantism often rejects tenets and beliefs of "authorities" where as they profess continued enlightenment and spiritual of self growth.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1895362' date='Jun 18 2009, 01:53 PM']Taking Apo and Rex out of the picture. The reverse is actually true. Protestantism often rejects tenets and beliefs of "authorities" where as they profess continued enlightenment and spiritual of self growth.[/quote]
Of course, anything can be perverted. That said, simply quoting an historical document is not an argument, nor does is compel one to blindly accept what is said in it at face value.

[Patrick]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1895362' date='Jun 18 2009, 01:53 PM']Taking Apo and Rex out of the picture. The reverse is actually true. Protestantism often rejects tenets and beliefs of "authorities" where as they profess continued enlightenment and spiritual of self growth.[/quote]

I was thinking more of the method than of the content. Namely the keytexting characteristic of so many Protestants, and the pre-eminence of the role of a statement of faith and right beliefs in one's salvation. Contrast this with the deification process within Orthodoxy.