Apotheoun Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889251' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:00 PM']. . . The Church, in the last few centuries, has clarified this belief in the Magisterium of the Church, both to deepen her own understanding it and to defend it against the errors.[/quote] As an Eastern Christian I do not accept the idea that doctrine "develops." The understanding of the faith is not a discursive reality, and so it is not open to logical development; instead, it is an experiential reality, which has its foundation in the experience of God provided to man through the Church's liturgy. Edited June 12, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889252' date='Jun 12 2009, 06:02 PM']The authority of the Church is found in her Tradition, which binds both the clergy and the laity.[/quote] The task of interpreting authentically both Scripture and Tradition has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889261' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:09 PM']The task of interpreting authentically both Scripture and Tradition has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church[/quote] That is the teaching of the Roman Church's local synod which took place at the Vatican in the 1960s, and which you -- as a member of the Roman patriarchate -- are bound to accept, but I am bound by the teachings of the Eastern Fathers, who held that Tradition itself is the authority in matters of faith, and that there can be no "development" of new doctrines over time. Edited June 12, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889249' date='Jun 12 2009, 05:59 PM']Most likely he is trying to prove that the Latin way is the only way.[/quote] I knew that. I wanted to hear it from him. But it looks like he ignored my post. *Sigh* this is sadly the position that so many take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) Resurrexi, Perhaps it would be helpful for you to know that I do not accept the Scholastic idea that faith is an act of the intellect. Instead, for me -- as one who follows the teaching of the Eastern Fathers -- faith is beyond the created intellect, and so it is only when discursive reasoning ceases that one can truly experience faith in the Triune God (cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa's [i]Seventh Homily on Ecclesiastes[/i] and his [i]Commentaries on the Canticle of Canticles[/i]). God grant you many joyful years, Todd Edited June 12, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1889264' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:15 PM'] I knew that. I wanted to hear it from him. But it looks like he ignored my post. *Sigh* this is sadly the position that so many take.[/quote] I apologize for interjecting a response, but I honestly did not think that he would ever respond to your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889267' date='Jun 12 2009, 06:17 PM']Resurrexi, Perhaps it would be helpful for you to know that I do not accept the Scholastic idea that faith is an act of the intellect. Instead, for me -- as one who follows the teaching of the Eastern Fathers -- faith is beyond the created intellect, and so it is only when discursive reasoning ceases that one can truly experience faith in the Triune God (cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa's [i]Seventh Homily on Ecclesiastes[/i] and his [i]Commentaries on the Canticle of Canticles[/i]). God grant you many joyful years, Todd[/quote] I hold the teaching of the First Ecumenical Vatican Council that "[W]e are bound by faith to give full obedience of intellect and will to God who reveals" (Denzinger-Schonmetzer 3008) I also hold, however, the teaching of the same Ecumenical Council which says that "[D]ivine mysteries by their nature exceed the created intellect so much that, even when handed down by revelation and accepted by faith, they nevertheless remain covered by the veil of faith itself, and wrapped in a certain mist, as it were, as long as in this mortal life, 'we are absent from the Lord: for we walk by faith and not by sight'" (Denzinger-Schonmetzer 3016) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889277' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:50 PM']I hold the teaching of the First Ecumenical Vatican Council that "[W]e are bound by faith to give full obedience of intellect and will to God who reveals" (Denzinger-Schonmetzer 3008)[/quote] Are you even reading what I write? Where did I imply that we are not to give obedience, which by its very nature would include both intellect and will, to God? What I said is that . . . faith is not an act of the intellect, but is an experience of God that transcends the created intellect. [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889277' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:50 PM']I also hold, however, the teaching of the same Ecumenical Council which says that "[D]ivine mysteries by their nature exceed the created intellect so much that, even when handed down by revelation and accepted by faith, they nevertheless remain covered by the veil of faith itself, and wrapped in a certain mist, as it were, as long as in this mortal life, 'we are absent from the Lord: for we walk by faith and not by sight'" (Denzinger-Schonmetzer 3016)[/quote] Although I reject the ecumenicity of First Vatican Council, I do think that this comment is a fairly good representation of what I have already said, i.e., that faith is beyond created reason. Again, where I disagree with the Western position is in holding that faith is an act of the intellect, because this idea is contrary to the teachings of the Holy Fathers, for -- to paraphrase St. Gregory of Nyssa -- it is only when one abandons all creaturely modes of intellection that he can come to experience God by faith. Edited June 12, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889283' date='Jun 12 2009, 06:59 PM']Are you even reading what I write? Where did I imply that we are not to give obedience, which by its very nature would include both intellect and will, to God? What I said is that . . . faith is not an act of the intellect, but is an experience of God that transcends the created intellect.[/quote] That by faith we are to give full obedience of intellect and will to God who reveals, at least how I understand it, means that faith is an act of intellect and will. Additionally, if faith were not an act of intellect and will, it would not be a free act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1889248' date='Jun 12 2009, 05:57 PM']Rex, what are you trying to prove?[/quote] I am trying to show that the teachings of the Holy Roman Church are binding upon all Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889292' date='Jun 12 2009, 05:07 PM']That by faith we are to give full obedience of intellect and will to God who reveals, at least how I understand it, means that faith is an act of intellect and will. Additionally, if faith were not an act of intellect and will, it would not be a free act.[/quote] That is where we differ, because for me -- as an Eastern Christian -- it is only the obedience of the will that requires action; while the obedience of the intellect involves the cessation of activity. To put it in the mystical language of the Eastern Fathers and the Hesychastic saints: It is in knowing that I do not know that I know. Obviously there is a play on the word "know" going on in this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889293' date='Jun 12 2009, 07:09 PM']I am trying to show that the teachings of the Holy Roman Church are binding upon all Christians.[/quote] Right...but it seems that you are outrightly attacking the Eastern Rite theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1889416' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:41 PM']Right...but it seems that you are outrightly attacking the Eastern Rite theology.[/quote] I have only been opposing the beliefs of Eastern Christians insofar as they contradict the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889456' date='Jun 13 2009, 12:11 AM']I have only been opposing the beliefs of Eastern Christians insofar as they contradict the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church.[/quote] If we are both Catholic and we are both recognized by the Holy See how can we be in contradiction? And do you know and study and understand the beliefs of Eastern Catholics? You keep saying Christians. We are Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1889489' date='Jun 13 2009, 01:17 AM']If we are both Catholic and we are both recognized by the Holy See how can we be in contradiction? And do you know and study and understand the beliefs of Eastern Catholics? You keep saying Christians. We are Catholics.[/quote] Do you honestly think that everyone who has been baptized or received into the Catholic Church holds orthodox views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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