The Creed

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889165' date='Jun 12 2009, 01:53 PM']On a side note, in the Catholic Church, the Latin version of the Creed has the same authority as the Greek since the Fathers of later ecumenical councils (e.g. Trent) made the profession of the faith using the Latin version.[/quote]
In its document clarifying the use and meaning of the filioque the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity stated the following:

"The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative, and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council."

No creed peculiar to any one particular liturgical tradition can be of equal value to the creed that was issued by the Second Ecumenical Council.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889182' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:20 PM']As a Catholic, I base my beliefs on the teachings of twenty-one ecumenical councils, not seven.[/quote]
I base my beliefs, as a Catholic, on the teachings of the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889183' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:22 PM']In its document clarifying the use and meaning of the filioque the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity stated the following:

"The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative, and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council."

No creed peculiar to any one particular liturgical tradition can be of equal value to the creed that was issued by the Second Ecumenical Council.[/quote]

I will base my understanding of the Creed on the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils. I do not care about what a document that claims no magisterial authority says.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889190' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:29 PM']I will base my understanding of the Creed on the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils. I do not care about what a document that claims no magisterial authority says.[/quote]
I seem to have touched a nerve.

I too accept the authority of the ecumenical councils, all seven of them, as normative for the whole Church.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889191' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:31 PM']I too accept the authority of the ecumenical councils, all seven of them, as normative for the whole Church.[/quote]

The Holy Roman Church, the mother and mistress of all Churches, recognizes more than seven Ecumenical Councils.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889196' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:36 PM']The Holy Roman Church, the mother and mistress of all Churches, recognizes more than seven Ecumenical Councils.[/quote]
The Holy Melkite Catholic Church, which is in communion with the Roman Church, only recognizes Seven Ecumenical Councils.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889190' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:29 PM']I do not care about what a document that claims no magisterial authority says.[/quote]
Pope John Paul II requested that the document clarifying the filioque be written and he order its publication by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. If you have a problem with his decision you will need to take that up with his successor.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889202' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:46 PM']Pope John Paul II requested that the document clarifying the filioque be written and he order its publication by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. If you have a problem with his decision you will need to take that up with his successor.[/quote]

But did the Holy Father promulgate the document using his authority as teacher of all Christians?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889223' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:31 PM']But did the Holy Father promulgate the document using his authority as teacher of all Christians?

[/quote]
I do not worry about such legalistic nonsense.

[Resurrexi]

So I take it that you see [i]Jesus of Nazareth[/i] as part of the Magisterium of the Church?

And when Pope Liberius (perhaps) signed an Arian or semi-Arian symbol under duress and not as Pope, do you see that as a part of the Magisterium of the Church, too?

Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889242' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:47 PM']So I take it that you see [i]Jesus of Nazareth[/i] as part of the Magisterium of the Church?[/quote]
The whole concept of "magisterium" is a late 19th century Latin construct.

Tradition, i.e., that which has been believed and done always, everywhere, and by all, holds the place of the "magisterium" in Eastern theology. That is why a layman like St. Maximos the Confessor was able to call Patriarch Pyrrhus to task for accepting the Monothelite heresy, and in doing so St. Maximos, a layman, became the guardian of Tradition.

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889242' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:47 PM']And when Pope Liberius (perhaps) signed an Arian or semi-Arian symbol as under duress and not as Pope, do you see that as a part of the Magisterium of the Church, too?[/quote]
Liberius embracing heresy under duress is a sad thing, but he is not to be blamed for his heresy [i]per se[/i]. The faith is not "created" by decrees of councils or patriarchs; instead, it is a divine gift which can be affirmed, but never added to, by conciliar actions.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Apotheoun

[picchick]

Rex, what are you trying to prove?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='picchick' post='1889248' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:57 PM']Rex, what are you trying to prove?[/quote]
Most likely he is trying to prove that the Latin way is the only way.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889244' date='Jun 12 2009, 05:53 PM']The whole concept of "magisterium" is a late 19th century Latin construct.

Tradition, i.e., that which has been believed and done always, everywhere, and by all, holds the place of the "magisterium" in Eastern theology. That is why a layman like St. Maximos the Confessor was able to call Patriarch Pyrrhus to task for accepting the Monothelite heresy, and in doing so St. Maximos, a layman, became the guardian of Tradition.[/quote]

Belief in the Church's authority to teach has always existed in orthodox Christianity, both Latin and Eastern. The Church, in the last few centuries, has clarified this belief in the Magisterium of the Church, both to deepen her own understanding it and to defend it against the errors.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889251' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:00 PM']Belief in the Church's authority has always existed in orthodox Christianity, both Latin and Eastern. The Church, in the last few centuries, has clarified this belief in the Magisterium of the Church, both to deepen her own understanding it and to defend it against the errors.[/quote]
The authority of the Church is found in her Tradition, which binds both the clergy and the laity.