Evolution And The Original Sin

[MithLuin]

[quote name='kafka' post='1873302' date='May 22 2009, 03:20 PM'][quote name='paddington']All those monkey-men were like, "hey something's different about Adam and Eve. Can't put my finger on it."[/quote]

bravo!

just remember they dont like it when you call them 'monkey-men.' They prefer to be called apes, and the more educated of the lot prefer anthropoids. [/quote]

Actually....the apes wouldn't have noticed anything at all. It was Adam who said. 'Hey, wait a minute...they're not like me.' The ability to be self-reflective, to wonder who we are - that's human.

And no, it was no mistake or 'chance' that Adam had that ability. It was given to him by God when he was given a human soul. While he may not have realized it right away, he did eventually come to understand that he was not an animal. God helped him to reach this understanding by (according to the Genesis account) asking him to name all of the other animals. In the process, he had to realize that...hey, I'm the only one giving out names here...

Adam immidiately recognized Eve as a fellow human being, so at that point, he was no longer identifying humans as 'me' but as 'people like me' - and the animals didn't qualify.

[Winchester]

[quote name='kafka' post='1873308' date='May 22 2009, 02:42 PM']what do you mean by that?[/quote]
Morphology does not determine ensoulment. Physical evolution does not determine ensoulment.

[Apotheoun]

I see no reason for the Catholic Church to connect its doctrinal beliefs to modern scientific theories about human origins, since such theories must of their very nature remain open to constant revision.

[kafka]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1873349' date='May 22 2009, 04:09 PM']Morphology does not determine ensoulment. Physical evolution does not determine ensoulment.[/quote]
a lower grade of being, of nature, or essence cannot transcend to a higher grade by its own power. This is one of the reasons why I believe in a Christian teleological and qualified view of evolution where God providentially intervenes at stages of micro and macro evolution.

My understanding at this point without going into great deal is that the whole cosmos evolved and reached a sort of constant or horizontal plane or finality in the primates. At this zero point the whole cosmos is finally prepared for the creation of man. Then God creates the first man Adam in One Act. He creates his body using the elements of the earth, and at the same instant infuses Adam's soul, and at the same instant breathes the spirit of life into him (soul/body/spirit)

This One Act of God is independent of evolution of the cosmos. Man is set by God as lord of the cosmos. And because of His essential transcendant structure of fulfillment in immediate vision of God, Man is the mystery of the material universe, while being materially connected to it, yet independent of evolution. Presupposing my faith, a direct connection to the evolution of plants and animals does not make sense to me. The connection is indirect in that God uses the material and forces already present to form man independently of evolution.

Edited May 22, 2009 by kafka

[Paddington]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1873310' date='May 22 2009, 03:45 PM']Actually....the apes wouldn't have noticed anything at all. It was Adam who said. 'Hey, wait a minute...they're not like me.' The ability to be self-reflective, to wonder who we are - that's human.[/quote]


Touche.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1873373' date='May 22 2009, 05:03 PM']I see no reason for the Catholic Church to connect its doctrinal beliefs to modern scientific theories about human origins, since such theories must of their very nature remain open to constant revision.[/quote]

Interesting.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Resurrexi

[mortify]

Regarding the original post, how does evolution contradict original sin?

I once heard we could genetically trace all people down to 8 human beings. Anyone hear something similar?

[Callidius]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1873177' date='May 22 2009, 02:08 AM']So the truth of the Catholic Faith is predicated on the totality of the human population being tracable back to an initial two beings?[/quote]

Yes but the truth is not found within the Story of Adam and Eve but through what God has told us and what we will find out in Heaven, God had to of told us about him making the Universe in 7 days

[Paddington]

[quote name='mortify' post='1873910' date='May 23 2009, 03:32 PM']Regarding the original post, how does evolution contradict original sin?[/quote]

Things dying before Adam sins.

I don't know if that is a genuine contradiction or not, but the discussion starts there.

[Guest]

Ok I dont know what the catholic church teaches on this but I have heard from Bible scholars that there was an earth age before adam and eve. I think something to the effect that there are 3 total earth ages. It also explains why God hated " insert name" (I forget his name) in the womb but loved Jacob. It shows how we made choices prior to coming to this earth in the flesh. I dont think it's infering reincarnation or anything but rather ties into how the fallen angles had intercourse with women, the giants and some other things. Furthermore I dont know how any of this ties into the current discussion but I think it does somehow when I've heard it explained before. I will google some stuff and try to find some stuff to post.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Guest

[kafka]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1875048' date='May 25 2009, 06:50 PM']Things dying before Adam sins.

I don't know if that is a genuine contradiction or not, but the discussion starts there.[/quote]
like what things?

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1875061' date='May 25 2009, 07:10 PM']Ok I dont know what the catholic church teaches on this but I have heard from Bible scholars that there was an earth age before adam and eve. I think something to the effect that there are 3 total earth ages. It also explains why God hated " insert name" (I forget his name) in the womb but loved Jacob. It shows how we made choices prior to coming to this earth in the flesh. I dont think it's infering reincarnation or anything but rather ties into how the fallen angles had intercourse with women, the giants and some other things. Furthermore I dont know how any of this ties into the current discussion but I think it does somehow when I've heard it explained before. I will google some stuff and try to find some stuff to post.[/quote]
that all sounds bizarre. Fallen angels cannot by there very nature have relations with human women. Absurd.

I've never heard of anything about 'earth ages' or 'three earth ages' by any serious Catholic thinker.

Most serious Catholic and Protestant theologians interpret a day in the Genesis account of Creation as symbolic for a long period of time.

Edited May 25, 2009 by kafka

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1875048' date='May 25 2009, 06:50 PM']Things dying before Adam sins.

I don't know if that is a genuine contradiction or not, but the discussion starts there.[/quote]

As far as I'm aware, the [i]donum immortalitatis[/i] was only given to our first parents and their descendants, not to the other animals.

[Guest]

[quote name='kafka' post='1875070' date='May 25 2009, 06:18 PM']like what things?


that all sounds bizarre. Fallen angels cannot by there very nature have relations with human women. Absurd.

I've never heard of anything about 'earth ages' or 'three earth ages' by any serious Catholic thinker.

Most serious Catholic and Protestant theologians interpret a day in the Genesis account of Creation as symbolic for a long period of time.[/quote]

I thought in the ot it talks about angels leaving their domain and haveing sex with women ?

[kafka]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1875072' date='May 25 2009, 07:19 PM']As far as I'm aware, the [i]donum immortalitatis[/i] was only given to our first parents and their descendants, not to the other animals.[/quote]
another way of viewing it, would be that it is unreasonable for animals to be immortal. It does not fit into the order of creation God established.

[kafka]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1875076' date='May 25 2009, 07:22 PM']I thought in the ot it talks about angels leaving their domain and haveing sex with women ?[/quote]
no nothing of the sort is found in the O.T.

I've heard this idea from a friend at work. He got it from these Protestant pseudo-pop theologians, and quite frankly I dont know where they get this idea from. It displays there total ignorance, for it is impossible for a fallen angel to have relations with a human. Isnt that obvious?