Magic?

[Galloglasses' Alt]

A curious thought struck me as I was reading the miracles and apparitions section on Catholicism .org [url="http://catholicism.org/category/miracles-and-apparitions"]link[/url]

Specifically the part where it mentions that evil people and daemons can work miracles to certain extent, (the objective definition of a miracle as something supernatural or preternatural, not just good), and was reminded of the Medieval Church's attitude to magic in the middle ages, (which surprised me greatly). In that Necromancy, (magic interferring with spiritual things) was damnable, but magic dealing with physical things was seen as a science. (You have to read this paragraph as you would as a medieval person to understand this, luckily for me I was studying Chuacer at the time and got more medieval-ness then I cared for. Which is saying something)

I ask what is the Church's stance on this today? Outside of warring against it for leading people into the Enemey's hands I mean.

[KnightofChrist]

I'll get this thread rolling....


Harry Potter is the devil.

discuss.

[jeffpugh]

That's nice of you

[CatherineM]

I like Harry Potter, so I guess I'm the devil too. Anyone whose main theme is that you have a choice in life, to take the easy road, or the right road, has to be the devil.

[philothea]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1871332' date='May 19 2009, 09:33 PM']A curious thought struck me as I was reading the miracles and apparitions section on Catholicism .org [url="http://catholicism.org/category/miracles-and-apparitions"]link[/url]

Specifically the part where it mentions that evil people and daemons can work miracles to certain extent, (the objective definition of a miracle as something supernatural or preternatural, not just good), and was reminded of the Medieval Church's attitude to magic in the middle ages, (which surprised me greatly). In that Necromancy, (magic interferring with spiritual things) was damnable, but magic dealing with physical things was seen as a science. (You have to read this paragraph as you would as a medieval person to understand this, luckily for me I was studying Chuacer at the time and got more medieval-ness then I cared for. Which is saying something)

I ask what is the Church's stance on this today? Outside of warring against it for leading people into the Enemey's hands I mean.[/quote]

I think there's a huge problem with terms, because in our usage, magic and science are pretty much the opposite of each other. By medieval magic do you mean things like alchemy? In any case, I think I know what you're getting at -- that there wasn't a clear line between "ordinary" engineering, medicine, and experimentation and the possibility of supernatural effects, because they didn't yet use the scientific method.

Anyway, this is from the current Catechism:

[indent]2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.[/indent]

[Nihil Obstat]

Times change. We all know where the Church stands now on magic and sorcery... the past would be very much based on their levels of science....... I think.

[LouisvilleFan]

The Church is all in favor of science... how else would we verify miracles for the causes of saints?

Magic is bad.

But abracadabra is the source and summit of our faith.

[tinytherese]

I used to be interested in witch craft years ago. Fortunately, I never actually did it but researched it. When I found out about it being satanic and that it was contrary to catholic belief (which I had just gotten into since it was during the time of my conversion to being a devout catholic instead of a luke-warm one.) I steered clear after that stayed a sorcery free catholic.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1871481' date='May 20 2009, 12:01 AM']I like Harry Potter, so I guess I'm the devil too. Anyone whose main theme is that you have a choice in life, to take the easy road, or the right road, has to be the devil.[/quote]

I wouldn't know. I wouldn't think so... I was just have a bit of fun with the first comment.

Harry Potter doesn't actually exist, thus he can not be the devil. While the books maybe influenced by the devil, but that is another debate. And a played out one at that.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1871434' date='May 19 2009, 10:29 PM']I'll get this thread rolling....


Harry Potter is the devil.

discuss.[/quote]

[CatherineM]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1872003' date='May 20 2009, 04:09 PM']I wouldn't know. I wouldn't think so... I was just have a bit of fun with the first comment.

Harry Potter doesn't actually exist, thus he can not be the devil. While the books maybe influenced by the devil, but that is another debate. And a played out one at that.

[/quote]

Well, we finally found something to agree on then. I think I'll stop on that high note and go for a walk with my husband.

[Resurrexi]

It is interesting to note that astrology, what we now consider divination, was in fact thought of as scientific rather than demonic by the Medievals. St. Albert the Great himself practiced it without scruple.

[MithLuin]

Walks with husbands are good. That does require a husband though, so....hmmm....


Magic that 'manipulates the physical world' isn't magic - it's engineering and science. Of course, if done in the right context, people will call it magic. So....yeah. Meaning, today, one of my students dumped a chunk of dry ice in a bucket of water, and her classmates watched in fascination as smoke billowed out like a dense fog.

Magic and science do have the same goal - control. If we understand the underlying principles, we can bend the world to our will (rather than just conforming ourselves to the whims of the world). This is not in and of itself evil, since God did put us in charge of creation - that power is rightfully ours, though we may abuse it.

Witchcraft and the like seeks power that is not naturally ours - powers that belong to spirits and such. We're really not supposed to get mixed up in that.

The problem is that the word 'magic' means so many things in English. If we say that an event was 'magical' we mean wonderful or perfect or otherworldly...but hardly demonic. If something surprises us, we might say that it happened like magic, but we just mean we didn't understand what was going on.

Galadriel gently corrects Sam Gamgee for his imprecise use of terms:
[quote]'For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?'[/quote]

The opposite of magic is not science, but wonder. Wonder removes the mechanics and does not pick things apart - it simply experiences things as they are, without attempts to classify them. The fact that there are so many 'rules' governing magic (you can kill werewolves with silver bullets, and they transform at sunset when there is a full moon) suggests a much more mechanical mind. There is an overlap, of course - in the process of studying science, you can experience wonder.

[Callidius]

I wonder if, Warp Drive could be considered "Magic". I thought I would like to ask this because I just read that a man named "Miguel Alcubierre" in 1994 came up with the Worlds first formulas and research for a working warp drive. Why I ask if this is magic is because it works by bending space-time to place the object at another point instantly, in theory you would "Arrive before you left". Space-time is the plane that allows everything to exist and interact, I do not know whether or not space-time is something of the natural world or the supernatural world, The universe in theory is a giant bubble of space-time so basically the warp drive surrounds the craft in a bubble of it and "drops out" of known space the bubble instantaneously arrives and "drops back in" at the desired point in space. I personally think that going outside the universe is interfering with the supernatural and we do NOT have dominance over that part of creation, though I want to ask you and your opinions and what the church teaches about that.

PS I feel really smart right now!

[Patrick]

[quote name='Callidius' post='1874026' date='May 23 2009, 04:10 PM']I wonder if, Warp Drive could be considered "Magic". I thought I would like to ask this because I just read that a man named "Miguel Alcubierre" in 1994 came up with the Worlds first formulas and research for a working warp drive. Why I ask if this is magic is because it works by bending space-time to place the object at another point instantly, in theory you would "Arrive before you left". Space-time is the plane that allows everything to exist and interact, I do not know whether or not space-time is something of the natural world or the supernatural world, The universe in theory is a giant bubble of space-time so basically the warp drive surrounds the craft in a bubble of it and "drops out" of known space the bubble instantaneously arrives and "drops back in" at the desired point in space. I personally think that going outside the universe is interfering with the supernatural and we do NOT have dominance over that part of creation, though I want to ask you and your opinions and what the church teaches about that.

PS I feel really smart right now! [/quote]

For one thing, there is no working prototype of this -- it's just a theory at this point, albeit an interesting one.

But also, you're mistaken when you say that, according to the theory, you would pop out and back into existence. Even if this theory were about hyperdimensionality -- leaving our common dimensions to leave one point and enter another in our common spacetime -- that doesn't mean that you're leaving the natural created order and interfering with supernatural things.

This theory is about contracting and expanding our own space. An Alcubierre drive, as I understand it, would effectively make long distances not so far away. It stays within our own spacetime, so you need not be worried on this point. :-)