Livin_the_MASS Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 [quote]But to completely retract a doctrine once taught as official would legitimately show the claims of the Catholic Church to be false. [/quote] I never did that! I never have herd of limbo! Or let me say it this way, I've never read or herd The Church give a doctrine on limbo. I would never go against The Catholic Church. I don't know where Bruce gets his information from? God Bless Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Jason, it's called being ALIVE back then, you puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Bruce, for once I think we partially agree. But only partially . Jason, I addressed this in another thread. Your assuredness that limbo does not exist is based on speculative theoogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 (edited) Hey now. :nono: Bruce, there is no doctrine on limbo it is not in the [b][u]CCC[/b][/u]. No debate. Remember my statements are said short and bold, but with charity. God Bless, Jason Edited March 27, 2004 by Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 However, Bruce, I was not alive back then. I simply study what the Church has always taught in addition to what the Church has taught for no more than 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Short and bold does not answer any of the objections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 There is a debate and I can give you several theologians of very high repute today who still teach limbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Fr. John HArdon, Dr. William Marshner, Fr. Pablo Straub (from EWTN). Just to name three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 I gave a link for you to go to at the beggining of this thread for the information needed. What else do you need, Truth is Truth. God Bless, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 The debate continues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Bruce S, Brother Adam, Jason, For clarifications sake, limbo is not, nor has it ever been an official doctrine of the Church. Different opinions and speculations exist in the Church and always have. Limbo was simply the most popular theory regarding the problem of dead babies. And the Church has never retracted limbo either, one can still hold to limbo. There is room for theorizing and speculation and theories because this matter has not been fully revealed. Scope the limbo thread for more details. Certainly limbo was taught back in the day, and is certainly still taught in some circles. But if its presented as a doctrine on the same level as Heaven, Hell and Purgatory there is a problem. Think of it as the same kind of thing as the theories of predestination. Maybe for a few centuries the Augustinian theory dominated, perhaps Thomas' theory, in some circles maybe the Molinist theory. But these are still theories and one has license to speculate and accept or reject a particular theory. With the problem of dead infants you have numerous theories as well. Augustine's theory, Thomas' theory, Cajetan's theory, the revived Thomistic theory of limbo (which was very popular for a time), etc.. But none of these are definitive teachings or a part of the deposit of faith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 (edited) I just looked limbo up on the realpresence.org and John Hardon taught that limbo was for those souls who died [b]before[/b] Our Lord's Acension into Heaven. Because Heaven was closed off until then. There is no doctrine on limbo, after Our Lords Acension go [url="http://www.therealpresence.org/essentials/creed/acc06.htm"]LOOK[/url] for youself! God Bless, Jason PS I Love John Hardon Edited March 27, 2004 by Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Look in Father Hardon's Catechism. Limbo is there. To say there is no doctrine (depending on what you mean by that term) after our Lord's ascension is simply incorrect. As LD said, there are numerous theories about the fate of the unbaptisd infants. What he didn't say, is one thing they all have in common is that they agre that unbaptised infants cannot experience the beatific vision. This was never revoked. What has been added as another theory is the poibility that God can save them through some extraordinary means. However, even that has about five or six subtheories as to how that could come about. Your statements are incorrect, Jason, and are quite oversimplistic. You act asthough it is some obvious truth. Tell that to the countless saints, Popes, and Councils who have said the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 27 2004, 11:46 AM'] Look in Father Hardon's Catechism. Limbo is there. To say there is no doctrine (depending on what you mean by that term) after our Lord's ascension is simply incorrect. As LD said, there are numerous theories about the fate of the unbaptisd infants. What he didn't say, is one thing they all have in common is that they agre that unbaptised infants cannot experience the beatific vision. This was never revoked. What has been added as another theory is the poibility that God can save them through some extraordinary means. However, even that has about five or six subtheories as to how that could come about. Your statements are incorrect, Jason, and are quite oversimplistic. You act asthough it is some obvious truth. Tell that to the countless saints, Popes, and Councils who have said the opposite. [/quote] Jason first, The limbo of the fathers (a.k.a. Hades, Sheol, "Hell", etc.) is a seperate thing. Limbus means a border or edge, or the hem of a garment and this word was used to describe the abode of the dead before Christ opened the gates of Heaven through His Passion, Death, Resurrection and Holy Ascension into Heaven. The limbo of infants is a different thing although the same word is used. popestpiusx, There have been theories put forward in the history of Catholicism that allow for the possibility of unbaptized infants receiving beatific vision. For example cardinal Cajetan's theory of pius parents meriting a baptism of desire on behalf of their infants. While I admit there is some difficulty defending this view in light of papal teachings, I really just wanted to say that there have been quite a variety of theories proposed. And I don't have a problem with a theory of limbo so long as its formulated in a way that leaves open (and maybe even stresses) the fact that we can and should hope for the salvation of these souls, not merely a "natural happiness", which I think is an absurd concept that implies a rather problematic theology of nature and grace. Since I think the standard approach to limbo cannot really pull this off, I hold that its an inadequate interpretation of the revealed datum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE!!! FATHER JOHN HARDON TAUGHT LIMBO WAS A PLACE DEPARTED SOULS WENT BEFORE OUR LORDS ACENSION!!!! HE DID NOT SAY LIMBO WAS STILL IN AFFECT AFTER THE ACENSION!!!! NOW SINCE OUR LORD HAD DIED, RISEN FROM THE DEAD AND ACENDED INTO HEAVEN AND HAS CONQUERED DEATH AND OPENED THE DOORS TO THE BEATIFIC VISION. WE HAVE THREE PLACES TO GO WHEN WE DIE, HEAVEN, HELL, PURGATORY!!!!! GOD BLESS JASSSSSSSOOOOOOONNNNNNN Do you like cap locks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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