picchick Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1869193' date='May 17 2009, 01:17 AM']no. I am a totality of spirit/matter Would you like to know my opinion even beyond that? I get the feeling you wouldnt understand it.[/quote] You know, I hate when people assume what others will/will not understand. Just say and explain yourself is someone does not understand. I find it insulting when people do this to me so I would ask that you don't do it to others. And if you do not think we will understand it, don't bring it up. [quote]Basically, I think this is a good view of things.[/quote] Good. Can everyone agree with what I said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='picchick' post='1869293' date='May 17 2009, 05:43 AM']Good. Can everyone agree with what I said?[/quote] Aww... but that would make it so easy! I guess I can... Yeah it sounds good picchick. Don't forget that posture and reverence are important aspects of how you pray though. Edit: Not a specific posture though (don't have to kneel, don't have to stand, etc, but no handstands in the chapel please? ) Edited May 17, 2009 by Slappo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) All that can be known with any certainty is that true worship (and true prayer) must always be Christologically and Triadologically structured (i.e., it must be made through the Son, to the Father, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit) . Now, as far as God hearing or accepting other prayer forms is concerned, it is not possible to give a definitive answer, because the answer to that question has not been revealed. All that has been revealed is that man must pray through the agency of the incarnate Logos, for He alone is the definitive revelation of God to man. Edited May 17, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1869343' date='May 17 2009, 11:56 AM']All that can be known with any certainty is that true worship (and true prayer) must always be Christologically and Triadologically structured (i.e., it must be made through the Son, to the Father, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit) . Now, as far as God hearing or accepting other prayer forms is concerned, it is not possible to give a definitive answer, because the answer to that question has not been revealed. All that has been revealed is that man must pray through the agency of the incarnate Logos, for He alone is the definitive revelation of God to man.[/quote] Where does the intercession of the saints (like praying the rosary, prayers to patron saints such as to St. Peregrine for cancer patients, etc.) fit into all this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 [quote name='Norseman82' post='1869390' date='May 17 2009, 10:57 AM']Where does the intercession of the saints (like praying the rosary, prayers to patron saints such as to St. Peregrine for cancer patients, etc.) fit into all this?[/quote] The saints are holy because of Christ, and so prayers to the saints for their intercession is Christological. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Alright, now for the main point of this thread... Then why does it matter if this prayer, done as you all say: reverence, thankfullness, through the Trinity, praise, intercession, is done with laying of hands, through praise and worship, or anything else? Does God care? As long as our relationship with Him grows through that prayer, does it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1869293' date='May 17 2009, 09:43 AM']You know, I hate when people assume what others will/will not understand. Just say and explain yourself is someone does not understand. I find it insulting when people do this to me so I would ask that you don't do it to others. And if you do not think we will understand it, don't bring it up.[/quote] it was playful. Hassan and I are friends so we allow for a little jeering. [quote name='picchick' post='1869713' date='May 17 2009, 08:22 PM']Alright, now for the main point of this thread... Then why does it matter if this prayer, done as you all say: reverence, thankfullness, through the Trinity, praise, intercession, is done with laying of hands, through praise and worship, or anything else? Does God care? As long as our relationship with Him grows through that prayer, does it matter?[/quote] I'm not sure what you are getting at? You mean do externals matter with regards to prayer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1869723' date='May 17 2009, 08:40 PM']it was playful. Hassan and I are friends so we allow for a little jeering. I'm not sure what you are getting at? You mean do externals matter with regards to prayer?[/quote] No, what I am getting at is that people are critcizing the way that others pray. Praying over someone is wrong. The way we use praise and worship songs are wrong. Charismatic prayer is wrong. If I am driving in my car, and all I say is "Help me God!" then God does not hear that? And those who say a rosary around a campfire, then God does not hear that? However, if these are done for the greater glory of God, do you think that God really cares? My main point in starting this thread, which perhaps I failed miserably at, was to show people across the different Rites, different Mass forms whatever, that in regards to prayer, I do not think God is that picky. God wants us to talk to Him. God wants us to piase Him. God wants us to be with Him. I do not think that He is going to turn someone away because He didn't say a prayer "the right way". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 (edited) [quote name='picchick' post='1870958' date='May 19 2009, 10:58 AM']No, what I am getting at is that people are critcizing the way that others pray. Praying over someone is wrong.[/quote] The Charismatic / Pentecostal heretics confuse simple prayer, which anyone can do, with the authority of praying over someone. One layman has no supernatural authority over another layman, and so one layman cannot pray over another layman, but he can pray for him. The practice of praying over a person is reserved to those with spiritual (i.e., one who is ordained) or natural (i.e., a parent in relation to his children) authority over those placed in their charge by the will of God. Thus, the Church -- as a supernatural family -- is ordered in the same way that a natural family is ordered, i.e., in a hierarchical fashion. Edited May 19, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1869713' date='May 17 2009, 08:22 PM']Alright, now for the main point of this thread... Then why does it matter if this prayer, done as you all say: reverence, thankfullness, through the Trinity, praise, intercession, is done with laying of hands, through praise and worship, or anything else? Does God care? As long as our relationship with Him grows through that prayer, does it matter?[/quote] It all depends on your intention, just like before. As long as you're not trying to do what a priest does, or show off, or focus more on the music/touch/intercession than on God, I'd say you're good. (Though I suppose being a moderate can sometimes be grounds for heresy. Trying not to! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginiancatholic Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1869713' date='May 17 2009, 07:22 PM']Alright, now for the main point of this thread... Then why does it matter if this prayer, done as you all say: reverence, thankfullness, through the Trinity, praise, intercession, is done with laying of hands, through praise and worship, or anything else? Does God care? As long as our relationship with Him grows through that prayer, does it matter?[/quote] As the goal of personal prayer is communion with God and a participation in the life of the Church, I would think that Our Blessed Lord is capable of received praise and communicating with people in different ways, ways specific to that particular person. I'm sure Our Lord cares, but only in so much as it is beneficial to His child...not that He would reject any particular form of prayer simply because of the manner in which it is engaged. Does that makes sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I was thinking about this post this morning. I was thinking about Jesus' parable where the shepherd left the herd to find the one lost sheep. Seems like he would be most pleased to hear the prayers of a true sinner, at least I hope so for my sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 [quote name='virginiancatholic' post='1871049' date='May 19 2009, 02:56 PM']As the goal of personal prayer is communion with God and a participation in the life of the Church, I would think that Our Blessed Lord is capable of received praise and communicating with people in different ways, ways specific to that particular person. I'm sure Our Lord cares, but only in so much as it is beneficial to His child...not that He would reject any particular form of prayer simply because of the manner in which it is engaged. Does that makes sense?[/quote] Make sense to me. This thread made me think of little kids and how cute they are when they try to pray. Try as they might most of them have great difficulty mastering certain words. For some reason "hallowed" is not an easy word for a lot of kids. I know when I was little at meal time prayer I would say brownie instead of bounty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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