kafka Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1868915' date='May 16 2009, 05:49 PM']Also, not that you can not, and certainly not that you should not. But one must be careful when 'praying from the heart', after all it can not be forgotten that "the heart is perverse above all things." (Jeremiah 17:9) Again this is only a warning, I am no way saying you can not 'pray from the heart.' We must be careful however that what we are praying from the heart should be what we are praying.[/quote] I think that is a bit of a stretch. God created the human heart. We do tend to be influenced by concupiscence, yet we are presupposing here that when we pray it is a response and a union with God's grace. Man naturally desires what is good. Edited May 16, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1868919' date='May 16 2009, 05:54 PM']I think that is a bit of a stretch. God created the human heart. We do tend to be influenced by concupiscence, yet we are presupposing here that when we pray it is a response and a union with God's grace. Man naturally desires what is good.[/quote] God did create the 'Human Heart' but because of the fall it is with the rest of us also fallen. Because man is fallen and because the flesh and the Spirit are always at war man will desire what is good and what is evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1868923' date='May 16 2009, 06:02 PM']God did create the 'Human Heart' but because of the fall it is with the rest of us also fallen. Because man is fallen and because the flesh and the Spirit are always at war man will desire what is good and what is evil.[/quote] yes, but your view is rustic. You fail to see that I am presupposing a man who is honest, good and sincere. A man who is basically good, honest and sincere, and responding to God's continual offer of grace, even in a partial way, will always pray for what is good, even if his mind and heart doesnt clearly see and will the good. Edited May 16, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1868925' date='May 16 2009, 06:08 PM']yes, but your view is rustic. You fail to see that I am presupposing a man who is honest, good and sincere. A man who is basically good, honest and sincere, and responding to God's continual offer of grace, even in a partial way, will always pray for what is good, even if his mind doesnt clearly see the good.[/quote] I know, but you engaged me in this discussion, both my previous posts before you engaged me where related. I am speaking of men who believe they are honest good and sincere but are not. Man must evaluate himself and his heart using Church Teaching to see if he truly is honest good and sincere, because after all he is fallen. He may not merely evaluate himself using only his heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1868931' date='May 16 2009, 06:16 PM']I know, but you engaged me in this discussion, both my previous posts before you engaged me where related. I am speaking of men who believe they are honest good and sincere but are not. Man must evaluate himself and his heart using Church Teaching to see if he truly is honest good and sincere, because after all he is fallen. He may not merely evaluate himself using only his heart.[/quote] Fair enought, still in my opinion a bit rustic. There is a 'side' to man that is original and beyond what he categorically encounters, and it is unified with what he historically or categorically encounters. Many men have never encountered Church teaching which is ultimately drawn from Divine Revelation, the Deeds and Words of God in salvation history. And even if they have encountered it, they might not understand it completely or perfectly. That doesnt make them any less human, or lacking. One basically chooses to accept the good or reject it, even if he is mislead and errs from time to time. Edited May 16, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1868937' date='May 16 2009, 06:28 PM']like I said. A bit rustic. There is a 'side' to man that is original and beyond what he categorically encounters, and it is unified with what he historically or categorically encounters. Many men have never encountered Church teaching which is ultimately drawn from Divine Revelation, the Deeds and Words of God in salvation history. And even if they have encountered it, they might not understand it completely or perfectly. That doesnt make them any less human, or lacking. One basically chooses to accept the good or reject it, even if he is mislead and errs from time to time.[/quote] I do not disagree, there is no debate. Those within the Church however must use Her guidance to help evaluate themselves. They can not evaluate their self by their self. With or without the Church there must be some outside force used by the person to evaluate their self. As you point out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1868948' date='May 16 2009, 06:38 PM']I do not disagree, there is no debate. Those within the Church however must use Her guidance to help evaluate themselves. They can not evaluate their self by their self. With or without the Church there must be some outside force used by the person to evaluate their self. As you point out.[/quote] that fits in with the structure of our beings : spirit/matter transendence/history unthematic/thematic and so on and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1868956' date='May 16 2009, 05:46 PM']: that fits in with the structure of our beings : spirit/matter[/quote] Are you a dualist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 If the person is sincere in his/her prayer and is putting his/her whole heart soul and mind into what they are saying and offering it up wholey and unselfishly to God in all intent and he/she is repentent of their sins, does it matter to God how they say their prayer? If they: Give thanks Give praise Ask what they need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1868915' date='May 16 2009, 05:49 PM']Also, not that you can not, and certainly not that you should not. But one must be careful when 'praying from the heart', after all it can not be forgotten that "the heart is perverse above all things." (Jeremiah 17:9) Again this is only a warning, I am no way saying you can not 'pray from the heart.' We must be careful however that what we are praying from the heart should be what we are praying.[/quote] Women is the heart of the home. I think that should also not be forgotten. Maybe that is off topic but be careful when you start shaming the heart. Our emotions come from heart and the mind. We are human. We sin. However, if we are sincere in our feelings and sincere in our repentence then we can pray with the heart. Furthermore, we must love God with our whole hearts soul and mind. The three together is what balances it all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1869183' date='May 17 2009, 12:52 AM']Women is the heart of the home. I think that should also not be forgotten. Maybe that is off topic but be careful when you start shaming the heart. Our emotions come from heart and the mind. We are human. We sin. However, if we are sincere in our feelings and sincere in our repentence then we can pray with the heart. Furthermore, we must love God with our whole hearts soul and mind. The three together is what balances it all out.[/quote] I wouldn't disagree, but then again that meaning of heart is completely different than what I was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1869184' date='May 17 2009, 12:55 AM']I wouldn't disagree, but then again that meaning of heart is completely different than what I was talking about.[/quote] What is the meaning you were talking about so that I may understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1869158' date='May 17 2009, 12:24 AM']Are you a dualist?[/quote] no. I am a totality of spirit/matter Would you like to know my opinion even beyond that? I get the feeling you wouldnt understand it. [quote name='picchick' post='1869169' date='May 17 2009, 12:37 AM']If the person is sincere in his/her prayer and is putting his/her whole heart soul and mind into what they are saying and offering it up wholey and unselfishly to God in all intent and he/she is repentent of their sins, does it matter to God how they say their prayer? If they: Give thanks Give praise Ask what they need[/quote] Basically, I think this is a good view of things. Edited May 17, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1869193' date='May 17 2009, 12:17 AM']no. I am a totality of spirit/matter Would you like to know my opinion even beyond that? I get the feeling you wouldnt understand it.[/quote] yes and we'll see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1869198' date='May 17 2009, 01:28 AM']yes and we'll see[/quote] good, yet I can already predict, that you havent considered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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