IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 The Catechism does not forbid the death penalty. It wasn't a judgement statement. The Catechism is Church teaching is it not? The CCC clearly states that in SOME cases the DP is ALLOWED. To claim the Church does not teach this is inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 I never said that. Read the above statement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Jason, you have said repeatedly that the DP is wrong, that the need for it is "non-existant", etc. That is NOT what the Church teaches. You specifically said that the Church teaches that there is no need for the DP. I'm pointing out where the Church teaches that in some cases (albeit rare cases) it IS needed and allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 First mistake: The article is written by Cardinal Mahoney. Second mistake: This is a speech by a Cardinal, not by the Pope or anyone with any authority outside his diocese. Third mistake: The speech is delivered to the "Catholics Against Capital Punishment" conference. That's three and I have not even started on the article yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 (edited) CCC 2267 [quote]Today in fact, as a consequence of the possibilites which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm---without definitively taking the possability of redeeming himself---the case in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity [b][u]"are very rare, if not practically non-existent. "[/u][/b][/quote] That NON- EXISTENT is from the CCC. I quoted it earlier! Is it not. [quote][b]In the Catholic Church, teaching on the death penalty has developed over time. For centuries, the Church accepted the right of the state to take a life in order to protect society. But over time and in the light of new realities, Catholic teaching now recognizes that there are non-violent means to protect society and to hold offenders accountable. [u]Church teaching now clearly argues for the abolition of capital punishment.[/u][/b][/quote] This states right here that over time the Catholic Church has relized to try to stop capitol punishment. You simply cannot take these facts and tell me that I am against the Church. I know what the CCC says. I follow what the CCC say and Love Pope John II. What he says goes period, if he says it's time to stop it, Amen! Are you trying to tell me to ignore the Popes instructions here to try to stop capital punishment? hmmm? Peace Edited March 28, 2004 by Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 27 2004, 11:51 PM'] First mistake: The article is written by Cardinal Mahoney. Second mistake: This is a speech by a Cardinal, not by the Pope or anyone with any authority outside his diocese. Third mistake: The speech is delivered to the "Catholics Against Capital Punishment" conference. That's three and I have not even started on the article yet. [/quote] Who are you to judge who writes what. Doesn't have enough Theology for you? Putting yourself in a high seat huh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 "Practically non-existent" does not equal "non-existant." You can go forth and pursue the abolition of the DP all you want, I never said there was anything wrong with that. I also never said that you were going AGAINST the Church. What I DID say was that what you are saying is Church teaching was inaccurate. When the Church makes an ammendment to the CCC and says the DP is wrong and not permitted under any circumstances THEN say its wrong on all grounds. Until then you cannot claim that the Church teaches something when the opposite is there in writing for all the world to see. Even the article you posted says that the allowance for the DP is LIMITED, not abolished by the Church's teaching. I love the Pope as much as you do. Likewise I follow the CCC, and I've made the point several times now that in rare cases the DP is allowed by the Church, as stated in the CCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 I have used the phrase "inaccurate" a couple times now, its beginning to irk me that you have said at least twice now that I am accusing you of going against Church teaching. Saying something inaccurate is not the same as turning away from and going against Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 I can't get the point across because I think you are for it in cetain cases and I'm not. That doesn't make me "inaccurate" either. If I'm "inaccurate" then you are saying that the Pope is "inaccurate" because he feels the same way I do. The Pope said it! I agree with it! If you want to say we are "inaccurate" thats fine! I'm not trying to fight about this, I was trying to help! You are firm in your opinion and I am in mine. Mercy is the school that I'm from (The Most Blessed Sacrament) it is mercy I will show. If the Church says put someone to death, I can't go against it. But it hasn't said that! But like I said before the Church blossoms in doctrine, it doen't change. I am not wrong for being against the death penalty either! The CCC doesn't tell you that you have to be for it. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 The Pope did not say that the Church officially teaches against the DP did he (if he has I missed it)? He encouraged us to put a stop to it. HE stands against it, but the Church officially does not stand completely against it in all cases (yet). I respect your decision to oppose the DP. What I said is that its inaccurate to say the Church teaches the DP is 100% wrong. When She does I will change my stance. It is not inaccurate to oppose the DP, its inaccurate to say the Church officially teaches that its 100% wrong. (How many times in how many different ways do I have to say that? lol I feel as if I've said it a million times now. :haha:) Just because I don't agree with you 100% doesn't mean that I don't understand where you are coming from. I believe I do, I just find problem with a few of the things you have said about what the Church teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 (edited) [quote]its inaccurate to say the Church officially teaches that its 100% wrong.[/quote] Where in my post do I say this. I feel like I'm saying it a 100 times to! The Pope is against the death penalty so am I! Your taking me the wrong way. I said I don't believe in the death penalty. Again the Pope feels the same way I do on this so if you feel I'm saying that the Church is not 100% accurate in this issue, again than you say it about the Pope. I never said it was 100% accurate, it is 100% how I feel, see the difference. Again the CCC does not tell you that you HAVE TO BE FOR IT (DEATH PENALTY)! Edited March 28, 2004 by Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 What does the Catachism say?(just asking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 CCC 2267 [quote]Today in fact, as a consequence of the possibilites which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm---without definitively taking the possability of redeeming himself---the case in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "[b]are very rare, if not practically non-existent[/b]. " [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 [quote]Again the Pope feels the same way I do on this so if you feel I'm saying that the Church is not 100% accurate in this issue, again than you say it about the Pope.[/quote] Perhaps I just misread your posts, but it seemed to me that you were trying to use the Pope's stance, the CCC, and the article you posted to show that the CHURCH teaches the DP is 100% wrong. I am not saying you have to be for it, but obviously one can not condemn others for staying within the limits of the Church's teaching on allowing it. I never said the Pope was inaccurate in anything, that is putting words in my mouth. Please stop doing that. I said to say that the Church teaches that its 100% is wrong. That is what it seemed to me that you were saying. If I am taking your words wrong you are doing just as badly with mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 [quote name='Jason' date='Mar 28 2004, 12:12 AM'] CCC 2267 [/quote] Gracias. Is that the only one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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