Carson Weber Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Guys, this isn't about a right to life. When you take another's life, you forfeit your right to life by your own choice. It is about the preeminence of mercy. Read Fr. William Saunder's piece: [url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0046.html"]http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0046.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Apples and Oranges Adeodatus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 (edited) [quote]The bishops raised several questions: Does the goal of retribution and the restoration of order justify capital punishment even for heinous crimes?[/quote] yes. [quote] Does capital punishment successfully deter future crime?[/quote] yes. [quote] Could not imprisonment, including for life, just as effectively protect society from a criminal, provide a chance for his genuine reform, and deter future crime?[/quote] For those cases in which the death penalty is necessary, absolutely not. Prison does not ensure that the person is no longer a threat. Ever seen statistics of repeat offenders after being released from prison? It is not promising. My idea of punishment is not three square meals a day, state-of-the-art gyms, college classes, air conditioned cells, cable TV..... [quote]Can we insure in our justice system sentences which are fair and not discriminatory?[/quote] Of course not, and yet: [quote]Following this perspective of punishment, capital punishment may be used only for heinous crimes, crimes which shake the foundations of society and which would necessitate such a severe proportionate punishment. For example, the Old Testament laws permitted the use of capital punishment for serious sins[/quote] [quote]Does not capital punishment constitute a cruel punishment which brings anguish to the criminal and his family?[/quote] Of course not. Life in prison is crueler than the death penalty. Most forms of execution are quick and nearly painless- such as leathel injection, beheading, firing squad, and even the chair kills the person in minutes, at most. Edited March 28, 2004 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeodatus Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Bro Adam, do you mean your apple of 'forfeiting the right to life' is clashing with my orange of 'the pre-eminence of mercy'? Well, apples may be good for your teeth, but it's the oranges that stop you getting scurvy! And to continue that theme: God knows we're all sick and at risk of death.... I want to let God decide. I want to have mercy, just like He's shown me mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Just to throw a "spin" on things, what about prisoners who have proven that they are a threat to fellow inmates and/or prison guards? If they are still a threat, even in prison, is the DP acceptable then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Kindof like the recent psycho who murdered a Muslim inmate after murdering and sodomizing 2 Jewish people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Yeah, I'd say thats a good example.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Think about it, Our Lord was innocent on the Holy Cross, INNOCENT and He stayed up there for our salvation, to give us the Gift of Himself in the Holy Eucharist until the end of time. He said "No servant is greater than his Master" (Jn 15:20) We are to imatate Christ in everything. Did he sentence anyone to death when He walked the earth over 2000 years ago. Did he say, you should put this man to death or this women to death for this reason or that reason NO! Why only God has that judgment! The Gospel message is love and mercy! Don't forget that! Again I say God alone is the Judge of ones death not us. He never gave us that commandment! I remember ah oh ya....."love your enemies"....."pray for those who persecute you" MERCY! MERCY! MERCY! We are supposed to be praying for the salvation of souls, not judging them. Matt 7 1-2 [quote]"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. [b][u]For as you judge, so will you be judged[/u][/b], and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you."[/quote] (Bold added by me) Now that is enough right here. But if you want I'll give more! Read the above Scripture slow and ask the Holy Spirit to guide your heart! The death penalty is wrong! God Bless, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Jason, thats not quite what the Church teaches. From the article Carson posted: [quote]The Catechism indeed states, “Preserving the common good of society requires rendering the aggressor unable to inflict harm. For this reason the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty” (#2266). To understand the Church’s position in this matter, we have to be clear about the foundational principles governing the teaching. First, the state has the duty to preserve the common good and to protect its citizens from harm. Therefore, the state may declare and wage a just war against an aggressor outside of the community as well as recognize the individual’s legal right of self-defense. A state may also impose just penalties on those individuals who commit crimes and threaten the well-being of society. Second, justice demands that punishment fit the crime — the penalty must be proportionate to the injury. In this way, punishment provides for proper retribution, deterrence and reform. As a form retribution, punishment restores the order of justice which the criminal violated. For example, if a criminal steals something, restitution must be made, such as the return of the stolen property. The criminal may also be deprived of certain freedoms through, for instance, incarceration or fines. Just retribution heals the injury caused by the crime. [/quote] Those are just the few beginning paragraphs, but it demonstrates the general point that in grave cases the DP is allowable. My question is, if a criminal PROVES he is still a threat while behind bars, is that a grave enough reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 [quote]Think about it, Our Lord was innocent on the Holy Cross, INNOCENT and He stayed up there for our salvation, to give us the Gift of Himself in the Holy Eucharist until the end of time.[/quote] He sure did. [quote]He said "No servant is greater than his Master" (Jn 15:20) We are to imatate Christ in everything. Did he sentence anyone to death when He walked the earth over 2000 years ago. Did he say, you should put this man to death or this women to death for this reason or that reason NO! Why only God has that judgment![/quote] Only God judges our salvation. However, those in civil authority have been placed there by God and are only there because God allows them to be there. By what you are saying, there should not even be prisons. No one should be judged in a court of law. You are proposing Anarchy. [quote]The Gospel message is love and mercy! Don't forget that! Again I say God alone is the Judge of ones death not us.[/quote] You are being overly zealous. Settle down. [quote]We are supposed to be praying for the salvation of souls, not judging them. Matt 7 1-2 (Bold added by me)[/quote] We should be praying for the salvation of souls, but this does not prove that civil authority has not been sanctioned by God. [quote]Now that is enough right here. But if you want I'll give more! Read the above Scripture slow and ask the Holy Spirit to guide your heart![/quote] You haven't proved a dang thing. You offering nothing more than biased opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Not Death, But for life in prison, ok. Especially since we have the option. Jesus said our new commandment was "to love one another as I have loved you" Is the death penalty loving one another and keeping this commandment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 27 2004, 06:51 PM'] He sure did. Only God judges our salvation. However, those in civil authority have been placed there by God and are only there because God allows them to be there. By what you are saying, there should not even be prisons. No one should be judged in a court of law. You are proposing Anarchy. You are being overly zealous. Settle down. We should be praying for the salvation of souls, but this does not prove that civil authority has not been sanctioned by God. You haven't proved a dang thing. You offering nothing more than biased opinion. [/quote] Do you belong to the world? I recall Christ saying we are not of the world! You sound more political than spiritual in this matter. Over zealous??? You dang right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 [quote]You haven't proved a dang thing. You offering nothing more than biased opinion.[/quote] Your opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 [quote name='Jason' date='Mar 27 2004, 06:55 PM'] Not Death, But for life in prison, ok. Especially since we have the option. Jesus said our new commandment was "to love one another as I have loved you" Is the death penalty loving one another and keeping this commandment? [/quote] Is this replying to my question? If so, I still fail to see how life in prison is a better option if the person is still a threat to the other inmates and prison guards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 (edited) lol. Jason you sound like a Baptist. Good for you. Edited March 28, 2004 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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