Death Penalty

[popestpiusx]

Carson, may I print a copy of your paper?

Edited March 27, 2004 by popestpiusx

[popestpiusx]

Here is an article I posted on another thread of the same topic:

Capital Punishment Not a "Pro-Life Issue"
by Peter W. Miller
Execution of criminals remains the right and duty of the state
As the wave of controversy and protest swirled around the execution of Timothy McVeigh last week, the debate over capital punishment came, once again, to the forefront. Among the voices urging politicians to spare the life of the worst domestic terrorist in American history was our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II.

While the Pope's opposition to capital punishment is well known to Catholics and infidels alike, what is less known is that it goes against the consistent 2000-year-old teaching of the of the Church. In fact as recently as 1993, the Catechism confirmed that executing certain criminals was the "right and duty" of the state. Not only was such an action allowed, but was considered an obligation of an orderly society.

"The just use of (executions) ... is an act of paramount obedience to this (Fifth) Commandment which prohibits murder." (The Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent - 1566)

A favorite tactic of those seeking to decry the death penalty is the use of oversimplified or inaccurate statements which stigmatize capital punishment as violent or vengeful. However, when the state sentences someone to death, it is not acting out of revenge, but out of an obligation to right a wrong. If the death penalty is an act of vengeance, so too would the incarceration of a prisoner for life. Those who subscribe to such passivist errors would probably have a hard time justifying any type of killing, including just wars and self-defense.

"it is lawful for them [who are in authority] to have recourse to the sword in defending that common weal against internal disturbances, when they punish evil-doers, according to the words of the Apostle (Romans 13:4): 'He beareth not the sword in vain: for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil'" (St. Thomas Aquinas - Summa Theologica, II-II, q.40, a.1).

Criminals are not executed out of violence or revenge but to restore the moral order through the appropriate application of the law. It has always been Church teaching that criminal acts disorder society and the primary purpose of punishment is retribution, the payment by the criminal of his debt to society. As Pope Pius XII put it: "The order violated by the criminal act demands the restoration and reestablishment of the equilibrium which has been disturbed."

Several American bishops have chimed in (as they do before each election) with the claim that capital punishment is a "pro-life issue" along with abortion and euthanasia. Hearing the orderly execution of a handful of sociopaths put on the same level to the annual guiltless slaughter of millions of innocent children should send chills down the spine of every man. Not only does the comparison trivialize the horrors of abortion, it gives an inaccurate representation of Church teaching. Abortion and euthanasia show contempt for human life, as does the killing of 168 people with a bomb. The execution of someone showing such contempt is just punishment. He has forfeited the right to his own life by breaking the law of God.

There are also those subscribing to the widespread modernist heresy that Jesus Christ came into the world for the sole purpose of teaching tolerance, acceptance and forgiveness; that the execution of a criminal removes any chance of reform and is not an act of forgiveness. What is missed in such an argument (as with the argument against "vengeance") is that the responsibilities of an individual differ from those of the state. Again, if execution is "unforgiving", why isn't life in prison? Forgiveness does not prevent taking the appropriate actions. If you had an employee steal from you, you'd certainly punish him even though you may forgive him. The Catholic Church has never taught that death is the worst punishment that can befall a man. Executed criminals are not condemned to hell and are given ample opportunity for repentance - to save their soul even though they've forfeited their body. Not even Christ, while hanging on the cross, decried capital punishment.


(Taken in full from Seattle Catholic)

[Carson Weber]

Yes, popestpiusx, you may.

[Adeodatus]

I’m with Jason and Thicke on this.

I believe that prisons exist in order to protect law-abiding citizens from people who might harm them, but more importantly, to afford the imprisoned the chance to see their wrongdoing and repent, and if possible, to be reformed.

The death penalty denies this opportunity to reform. No one can give up their right to life because it derives from their being human. Even the most inhuman deeds cannot stop them being human. And if you still doubt this, then remember that God made them and loves them, and that Jesus died for them also. It is not for us to say that they have no further time to repent and receive God’s mercy. This does not imply that we should empty our jails, but we must certainly desire ‘release for captives’ because that is what Our Lord proclaimed when He declared the inauguration of the Kingdom.

God’s justice can’t be compared to ours. As Scripture says, ‘Vengeance is mine, says the Lord, I will repay’. Only God can mete out true justice, and our civil justice is a poor approximation. If God causes some person’s death it must be the case that God does this in utter justice. But nothing we do can guarantee that capital punishment is just in any case.

More fundamentally, the question is what we think capital punishment can achieve. It can’t restore anything to us. You can only tolerate the death penalty if you maintain an ‘us versus them’ mentality, if you think of such criminals as utterly unlike you, not as your brothers and sisters. The divine command to love one another, to love our enemies, means that we must love everyone. That means we have to love politicians, lawyers, rapists, paedophiles, serial killers and al-Qaeda. Loving them doesn’t mean we have to have warm feelings for them. But it does mean that we should desire what God desires for them. We must desire that flourishing and bliss that God longs to give them by the vision of the Trinity. If we say otherwise, then are we Christian? Do read my words carefully. None of this is mushy liberalism. It is pure, hard-nosed love. The kind God has for us. The kind He wants us to have for each other.

[Adeodatus]

popestpiusx is right. Hell is far worse than death. That's why we have to give people the chance to repent and not despatch them to God's judgement before they have that chance.

[popestpiusx]

Hello adeodatus, long time no see (hear, read??). I, of course, disagree.

From the Catholic Encylopedia:

Canon law has always forbidden clerics to shed human blood and therefore capital punishment has always been the work of the officials of the State and not of the Church. Even in the case of heresy, of which so much is made by non-Catholic controversialists, the functions of ecclesiastics were restricted invariably to ascertaining the fact of heresy. The punishment, whether capital or other, was both prescribed and inflicted by civil government. The infliction of capital punishment is not contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church, and the power of the State to visit upon culprits the penalty of death derives much authority from revelation and from the writings of theologians. The advisabilty of exercising that power is, of course, an affair to be determined upon other and various considerations.

[Brother Adam]

No one has an excuse as St. Paul tells us. The criminal cannot go to God and say "God they shot me before I had a chance to repent". Give me a break. This is why everyone is asked and allowed to see a member of the clergy (Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish) before they are put to death.

[popestpiusx]

Exactly!! And one is more likely to convert when they know they will be staring God in the face in just a couple minutes.

Edited March 27, 2004 by popestpiusx

[popestpiusx]

adeodatus, do you belive cap. punshment is intrinically evil?

[Adeodatus]

No. It is not [i]intrinsically[/i] evil, but in the west there is no need for it. As Thicke said, in countries like the Philippines the government may have to resort to it.

Brother Adam, you misunderstand me. This is not about the sinner getting an excuse. This is about giving them the chance to repent, whether they do or not. Likewise PSPX, do you really think confronting people with their own death is always the best way to elicit repentance? Can you see all ends? Can you read human hearts? Then why deny them this chance at life-giving repentance? It may take them another 50 years before they could ever repent. Who knows. God alone does. So why are you so eager to dole out death?

I'm saying in a modernised and stable country, there is no valid recourse to be had to the death penalty. As Scripture says, [b]"As I live, says the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked man. rather let him turn from his evil way and live."[/b] (Ezekiel 33.11)

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Adeodatus' date='Mar 27 2004, 01:26 PM'] No. It is not [i]intrinsically[/i] evil, but in the west there is no need for it. As Thicke said, in countries like the Philippines the government may have to resort to it.

Brother Adam, you misunderstand me. This is not about the sinner getting an excuse. This is about giving them the chance to repent, whether they do or not. Likewise PSPX, do you really think confronting people with their own death is always the best way to elicit repentance? Can you see all ends? Can you read human hearts? Then why deny them this chance at life-giving repentance? It may take them another 50 years before they could ever repent. Who knows. God alone does. So why are you so eager to dole out death?

I'm saying in a modernised and stable country, there is no valid recourse to be had to the death penalty. As Scripture says, [b]"As I live, says the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked man. rather let him turn from his evil way and live."[/b] (Ezekiel 33.11) [/quote]
Can I get a AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thicke]

[quote name='Carson Weber' date='Mar 27 2004, 11:47 AM'] [u]The second[/u] is that the Church is not against the death penalty [i]per se[/i] (i.e., in and of itself). Rather, the Church is against the use of the death penalty when it can be avoided due to the preeminence of mercy without forsaking the proper application of justice. [/quote]
Thank you Carson. This has been my point all along, just without the benefit of a Stubenville education.

[thicke]

[quote name='Adeodatus' date='Mar 27 2004, 12:01 PM']I’m with Jason and Thicke on this.
[/quote]
I'm not sure Jason and I are on the page though....We might be on the same side of the debate, but for different reasons.

[quote name='Adeodatus' date='Mar 27 2004, 12:01 PM']The death penalty denies this opportunity to reform.  [/quote]

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. There have been many stories of death row conversions. And like Brother Adam said, they always have access to the clergy.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Likewise PSPX, do you really think confronting people with their own death is always the best way to elicit repentance? [/quote]

Do you think someone capable of putting a gun into a 7 year olds face and pulling the trigger for no reason has a [b]right[/b] to life.

[quote]Can you see all ends? Can you read human hearts? [/quote]

No, and I don't have to. Certian actions can revoke our right to live.

[quote]Then why deny them this chance at life-giving repentance?[/quote]

Everyone is given a chance to repent.

[quote]It may take them another 50 years before they could ever repent. Who knows. God alone does. So why are you so eager to dole out death? [/quote]

I am hardly eager to "dole" out death. I am in favor of the death penalty. Eagerness has nothing to do with it. The death penalty in the US is hardly a quick process, some inmates spending 20 or more years in prison before all appeals are finished. More than plenty of time to repent. Naturally the moments before death aren't the most desirable circumstances

[quote]I'm saying in a modernised and stable country, there is no valid recourse to be had to the death penalty. As Scripture says, "As I live, says the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked man. rather let him turn from his evil way and live." (Ezekiel 33.11)[/quote]

Having to sentance someone to death is never a pleasurable, but sometimes necessary.

[Adeodatus]

[quote]Do you think someone capable of putting a gun into a 7 year olds face and pulling the trigger for no reason has a right to life. [/quote]

Well, yes, actually! I think someone capable of putting Jesus to death has a 'right to life' as well, and I'm talking about you and me Bro Adam. I really don't care how horrendous the crime is, the truth is this is, as Scripture says, a brother for whom Jesus died. If Jesus loves and wants to save them, as He loves and wants to save me, who the hell am I to try and stop Him?!!!! Who am I to play God and despatch people to their particular judgement?

The more fiundamental question is this: are you, even now, ready to meet your Maker? And what will you say to Him? "I took Your precept of 'turn the other cheek' and 'love your enemies' and turned it on its head"? Having been shown such mercy by the Most High, who am I not to show mercy to my brothers and sisters?!

Jason, AMEN!!!!!!!!!