mulls Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 (edited) wow it's funny all of us here seem to love the Lord yet simply have differing opinions on things. it's kinda like........... nah. Edited March 27, 2004 by mulls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2004, 12:40 AM'] "corporal punishment" is spanking. The Church teaches that Governments have a right to use capital punishment when necessary. [/quote] haha I KNEW there was something wrong with that phrase! Well, I still stand by what I said. Sometime spankin's are necessary! So is capitol punishment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thicke Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 First of all, capital punishment should never, never be that - punishment. Punishing someone for their sins (crimes) by killing them is cruel and taking upon yourself an authority that really only God should have. Now, with that being said there are still valid reasons for a government to inflict execution on it's criminals. Two reasons stand out as valid. The first is as a deterrent. Besides the fact that I have a soft heart, I would never murder anyone in Texas, because I know that if caught and found guilty in a court of law, I would be executed post haste. This however did not seem to be such a big deterrent for the 300+ people executed in Texas (if they were all guilty) since 1975, or the 450+ currently sitting on death row. You have to remember that a lot of these people have little to live for anyway. They also value life very little, including their own. Is this a deterrent here in the US? We'll never know. It's much more obvious in other countries where the culture of death hasn't permeated every layer of society. The second is to protect society from the criminal. But does that really hold water in a rich, technologically advanced culture such as the US? We will say that our tax dollars shouldn't go to pay for the upkeep pf criminals that have committed violent crimes. If you say this, you would be right, but the answer is not to kill more. I would say that my tax dollars should not go to pay for the welfare of a single mother and her three kids, but the answer is not to legalize abortion. Now, you might say that it's not the same. In an abortion, you are dealing with an innocent. That is correct. But they are the same in the fact that you are dealing with a human life, which is being ended for the sake of convenience. Now, just to let you know that I'm not a hard nosed liberal when it comes to this issue, let me also say this. I have visited the Philippines many times. There it's different story. The government has almost no resources what so ever to apply to their penal system. There the death penalty is on the table for rape, murder, kidnapping and drug trade. It has to be. They have no other choice than to do this to protect society, because of the lack of an economically and technologically sound prison system. They have no other choice there than to do this to protect society. Here, we have a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Actually thicke, the primary end of punishment is to restore the order of justice. It is precisly that - punishment. This is not putting ourselves in God's place. He even prescribed its use in the OT and the Church has always and without exception defended the right of the state to execute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thicke Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 (edited) [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 27 2004, 08:31 AM'] Actually thicke, the primary end of punishment is to restore the order of justice. It is precisly that - punishment. This is not putting ourselves in God's place. He even prescribed its use in the OT and the Church has always and without exception defended the right of the state to execute. [/quote] It seems that we have a mentality today of "they should suffer like the victim suffered" or "I want my pound of flesh". There is too much of a revenge factor in our society. We shouldn't want to make anyone suffer as a primary reason for inflicting punishment. It should always be for good reasons, not for bad. I think if you go back and re-read my post, you'll see that I agree with your statement. The problem is that execution is not needed in our society to "restore the order of justice". Executing someone simply because we think they deserve to die is not within our purview. Executing someone to protect society is, but is also unnecessary in the Untied States. Edited March 27, 2004 by thicke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 as I said, the primary purpose of punishment is not deterrence, but rather restorative or what is called retributive. The Church has alsways held that capital punishment is a prefectly legitimate form of retributive justice (that was poorly worded sorry). Retribution and vengence are not the same thing morally speaking. To reduce capital punishment to merely a deterrence (while it certainly has that effect) is to ignore nearly 2000years of Church teaching on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 I am prolife but believe in death penalty in selected cases. If you take a life, you owe a life - yours. I am not going to debate it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 (edited) This will go no where but probably to the back alley. To many different views. I will say again, "Let the one without sin cast the first stone" Don't forget that it was a women caught in adultery and the "capitol" punishment back then was stoning her to death, and Our Lord stopped it. Anyway remember no charity instead he! he! God Bless, Jason PS Pope John Paul the II doesn't approve the death penalty Edited March 27, 2004 by Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 (edited) We are not talking about the death of innocent people. The burden of proof for guilt for someone to recieve the death penalty is amazing. The death penalty is indeed a deterant- look at how often criminals are willing to kill police officers. It's almost unheard of compared to the murder of anyone else. Because when you kill a cop- your going to receive your due punishment here on earth. God sanctioned the DP in the Old Testament. The Old Testament has been fulfilled, yes, but in our courts of law, the law still has its place. If someone viciously murders others, they need to be put to death. None of this "maybe they can be saved" nonsense. They have had their chance. It is not about revenge, it is about justice. And it is just to use the DP in some cases. Here is something to think about: Recently a young girl was hit by a snow plow and dragged several miles before the driver finally stopped. The driver was driving on a suspended license and knew he hit the girl. He is only being charged with leaving the scene of an accident and driving on a suspended license. He may not even face jail time, but this young girl is dead forever. Edited March 27, 2004 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 She wasn't innocent she was caught in adultery! The Lord stopped it, remember they said the law of Moses said she deserved death by stoning. She was guilty by the law of Moses. But then He said "[b][i][u]let the one without sin cast the first stone[/u][/i][/b]" Then they all left because we are all guilty of sinning, and it is not up to humans to make the choice who lives and who dies. JPII "[b][i][u]Defend the right to life from conception to natural death.[/u][/i][/b]" God Bless, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 (edited) I think your right Jason, I'm going to go petition that everyone in prison or jail should be released immeadiately. We surely don't have the right to punish them. Only God can do that. Whenever someone commits a crime we should just pat them on the butt and send them on their merry way. I defend the right to life, as our constitution does. But someone can give up their [b]right[/b] to life. Edited March 27, 2004 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. Bro. Adam Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Food for thought. Were we not given our government to rule over us? God instituted the death penalty for lesser things, such as adultery. (Yes, that is no longer the case.) Aren't we supposed to pray for those in authority over us? Just because someone is sentenced to death does not mean that they will be put to death right away. There's plenty of room for them to be pardoned. There have been many cases where convicted murderers( those who actually admitted it as well), who had been setenced to death, and in the time waiting for their penalty ended up being saved by the grace of God. Those individuals also didn't argue or contest their punishment. They believed that it was just for what they had committed. To say that the Death Penalty is not just is to say that a child being grounded from things is not just, that any punishment is not just. God gave us examples to follow, and if you read you will find that the death penalty was used by God (Sodom and Gohmorra, also when the He caused the Earth to open up and swallow an entire nation of people). God is a just God, and to say that the Death Penalty is unjust would be calling God unjust, would it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Mother, I think you and I (as well as Mr. Mrs. Bro. Adam) agree on this one!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. Bro. Adam Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 [quote]Then they all left because we are all guilty of sinning, and it is not up to humans to make the choice who lives and who dies.[/quote] No, but it is up to us to make sure that punishment is given. With this reasoning of yours, it is like saying that a mother and father have no right to punish their child for disobeying them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Weber Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 I have two comments to contribute to this thread. [u]The first[/u] is in reply to Jason's use of Jesus' reply in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53-8:11), which is, incidentally, this Sunday's Gospel reading. Jason, I would propose to you that your interpretation (which is popular) in untenable. I wrote a 10 page exegesis on this scenario for a New Testament class I took with Dr. Scott Hahn at Franciscan University of Steubenville, and it is attached to this post below. [u]The second[/u] is that the Church is not against the death penalty [i]per se[/i] (i.e., in and of itself). Rather, the Church is against the use of the death penalty when it can be avoided due to the preeminence of mercy without forsaking the proper application of justice. Father William Saunders wrote an excellent article on this subject at [url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0046.html"]http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0046.html[/url] for the [i]Arlington Catholic Herald[/i]. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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