Praying Over Someone

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1869421' date='May 17 2009, 10:32 AM']Eastern Churches do not have confessionals. The Mystery of Confession is normally celebrated in front of an icon of Christ that is placed near the iconstasis.[/quote]

No doubt the differences...I was always curious about where the different traditions come from...

[MStar]

Erhm, sorry but this is getting a little ridiculous. I've prayed over people, but not with the intention of giving them a priestly blessing. That's different, it's a blessing only a priest can give and is very special. Much like a parent's blessing. But we can also bless people in our own way. "God Bless you" is a common enough phrase and it's even better when people actually mean it. We are each baptized priest, prophet, and king, and are each children of God. As such we do have the capacity to bless each other in different ways and can certainly "pray over" them because all that is is saying prayers over them.

Also, charisms DO NOT replace the sacraments in any way, the sacraments are for personal holiness, the charisms are for building up the Church and for witnessing to unbelievers. Please stop accusing the charismatics of being heretical, true charismatic Catholics DO NOT put the gifts above all else.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MStar' post='1869540' date='May 17 2009, 01:46 PM']Please stop accusing the charismatics of being heretical, true charismatic Catholics DO NOT put the gifts above all else.[/quote]
We will have to agree to disagree about the nature of the charismatic movement.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1869513' date='May 17 2009, 01:26 PM']No doubt the differences...I was always curious about where the different traditions come from...[/quote]
The different customs arose through historical factors that were often peculiar to a specific time or place. The confessional booth, for instance, which is popular in the Western Church, started being used at the end of the 16th century. Prior to that time priests in the Latin Church normally heard confessions at the roodscreen (i.e., the equivalent of the Eastern iconostasis).

[Apotheoun]

Below is an example of a roodscreen at St. Catherine's Church, Ludham, England:

[img]http://www.geocities.com/theomimesis/ludham_roodscreen1.jpg[/img]

Close-up picture of the left side of the rood screen:

[img]http://www.geocities.com/theomimesis/ludham_roodscreen2.jpg[/img]

Click the link below to see more images:

[url="http://www.norfolkchurches.co.uk/ludham/ludham.htm"][u][b]St. Catherine, Ludham[/b][/u][/url]

[N/A Gone]

Does it make a difference Apotheoun? I do not mean disrespect, but if I am confessing with the priest does it matter if I am in a booth, in front of an icon, in an office or anywhere as long as the prayers are heard and absolution is made?

btw, if you have time could you share with me the difference of Western concepts of the sacrament and Eastern concept of the mysteries? How are they different and how are they just a matter of language?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1869589' date='May 17 2009, 06:09 PM']We will have to agree to disagree about the nature of the charismatic movement.[/quote]

Look into the genuinely Catholic charismatics... they have no desire to clericalize the laity, to overrides the sacraments, or any such thing. Attend a Life in the Spirit retreat and you'll see times of silent prayer and the Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament and as reverent a Mass as you'll find almost anywhere, and sacramental Confession, along with the gifts of the Holy Spirit associated with the Charismatic Movement. The purpose of the Charismatic Movement isn't to do anything new... it's simply to renew the Catholic Faith, regardless of whether you call yourself a Charismatic or if any of these gifts are given to you.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1869609' date='May 17 2009, 03:36 PM']Does it make a difference Apotheoun? I do not mean disrespect, but if I am confessing with the priest does it matter if I am in a booth, in front of an icon, in an office or anywhere as long as the prayers are heard and absolution is made?[/quote]
Confessing in front of an icon of Christ is very important to me as an Eastern Christian, because the icon manifests the presence of the one depicted in it. It is a theophany.

Now, as far as confessing just anywhere is concerned, sacred things properly belong in a consecrated place. Certainly in extraordinary circumstances one can celebrate the mystery of confession anywhere, but that holds only as something that is done with due cause.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1869609' date='May 17 2009, 03:36 PM']btw, if you have time could you share with me the difference of Western concepts of the sacrament and Eastern concept of the mysteries? How are they different and how are they just a matter of language?[/quote]
Sorry, I have been warned not to "hijack" threads from the normative Latin practice of the Catholic Church. That said, I may already be in trouble for bringing up what little I have about Eastern praxis in this thread.

God grant you many joyful years,
Todd

Edited May 17, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1869612' date='May 17 2009, 03:39 PM']Look into the genuinely Catholic charismatics...[/quote]
I reject the Charismatic movement because its theology is Protestant.

[MStar]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1869589' date='May 17 2009, 03:09 PM']We will have to agree to disagree about the nature of the charismatic movement.[/quote]
Apparently But since I'm charismatic and you're not...just sayin'

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1869612' date='May 17 2009, 03:39 PM']Look into the genuinely Catholic charismatics... they have no desire to clericalize the laity, to overrides the sacraments, or any such thing. Attend a Life in the Spirit retreat and you'll see times of silent prayer and the Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament and as reverent a Mass as you'll find almost anywhere, and sacramental Confession, along with the gifts of the Holy Spirit associated with the Charismatic Movement. The purpose of the Charismatic Movement isn't to do anything new... it's simply to renew the Catholic Faith, regardless of whether you call yourself a Charismatic or if any of these gifts are given to you.[/quote]
This is very true. I especially like the last sentence!

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1869618' date='May 17 2009, 03:51 PM']I reject the Charismatic movement because its theology is Protestant.[/quote]
Again, we'll have to disagree. The movement has it's start in a protestant group, it's true, and some of the worship styles may be the same (outside of the Mass, of course, obviously no protestant worships like that ) and when we ad lib our prayers we may sound protestant because we're not reciting formulaic prayers (not saying there's anything wrong with those, I use 'em too), but a good charismatic Catholic's theology will be solidly Catholic. The fact that God gives the charisms for the building up of the Church is not a protestant idea, it's a Catholic one. What the Catholics have done here is seen a good thing that the protestants have and realized it's a Catholic idea and taken it back. If the the Reformation had never split the Church, who knows, maybe there'd be lots more charismatics today.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MStar' post='1869625' date='May 17 2009, 04:08 PM']Again, we'll have to disagree. The movement has it's start in a protestant group, it's true, and some of the worship styles may be the same (outside of the Mass, of course, obviously no protestant worships like that ) and when we ad lib our prayers we may sound protestant because we're not reciting formulaic prayers (not saying there's anything wrong with those, I use 'em too), but a good charismatic Catholic's theology will be solidly Catholic. The fact that God gives the charisms for the building up of the Church is not a protestant idea, it's a Catholic one. What the Catholics have done here is seen a good thing that the protestants have and realized it's a Catholic idea and taken it back. If the the Reformation had never split the Church, who knows, maybe there'd be lots more charismatics today.[/quote]
Yes, we clearly disagree about the movement's true nature, although it is nice to see you admit that it is founded upon Protestant theological principles. That said, I see the emotional pseudo-spirituality of the movement as dangerous.

[MStar]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1869627' date='May 17 2009, 04:12 PM']Yes, we clearly disagree about the movement's true nature, although it is nice to see you admit that it is founded upon Protestant theological principles. That said, I see the emotional pseudo-spirituality of the movement as dangerous.[/quote]
Yes, I guess I see it as not much different than many of the saints using pagan authors to help them form theologies. The Church throughout history sees what is good and true in other cultures and accepts it as such, without abandoning any of the truths it already holds to. There may be a danger of over-emotionalism, but as long as the community/person realizes that emotions are not central to ones faith, I don't think it's too dangerous. I've heard of people going to Latin Masses (or even a novus ordo Mass) because they really like the aesthetic feel of it, and the traditionalism behind it. They say they like the solemn feel. I do too. But that's not why I go to Mass. I have heard of people who sing praise and worship because of the emotions they get out of it. I like the emotional side of the charismatic movement as well, but that's not why I'm a part of it. Emotions will happen no matter what you're involved in (I hope!). They're not bad, people just need to be aware that they will not last and are not that important.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1869627' date='May 17 2009, 06:12 PM']Yes, we clearly disagree about the movement's true nature, although it is nice to see you admit that it is founded upon Protestant theological principles. That said, I see the emotional pseudo-spirituality of the movement as dangerous.[/quote]

Faith based solely in seeking "highs" as I've seen is, indeed, dangerous. But are you suggesting instead that we forsake emotion entirely for rigidity? I ask this seriously, as you aren't the first I've seen to be advocating emotionless spirituality.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MStar' post='1869630' date='May 17 2009, 04:22 PM']Yes, I guess I see it as not much different than many of the saints using pagan authors to help them form theologies.[/quote]
The Eastern Church condemned the pagan philosophical systems of the Greeks in the Synodikon during the first millennium. Clearly again, we do not see things in the same way.

[quote name='MStar' post='1869630' date='May 17 2009, 04:22 PM']The Church throughout history sees what is good and true in other cultures and accepts it as such, without abandoning any of the truths it already holds to.[/quote]
Protestantism is not a culture; instead, it is a theological heresy, or -- to put it better -- it is a multitude of heresies.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1869632' date='May 17 2009, 04:25 PM']Faith based solely in seeking "highs" as I've seen is, indeed, dangerous. But are you suggesting instead that we forsake emotion entirely for rigidity? I ask this seriously, as you aren't the first I've seen to be advocating emotionless spirituality.[/quote]
Emotions ebb and flow, and consequently they cannot form a solid foundation for faith.

That said, my main concern in connection with the Charismatic movement is its Protestant underpinnings (e.g., the notion of Spirit baptism, which reveals its anti-sacramentalism, etc.). I simply do not believe that the Charismatic movement is genuinely Catholic, and I formed this opinion while I was still a Protestant myself (just before my conversion to Catholicism), and so far nothing has been presented here at Phatmass that has given me any reason to change my original appraisal of the movement as a form of the Protestant Pentecostal heresy infiltrating the Church.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Apotheoun