Time To Get This Salvation Thing Straight

[MC Just]

The Eucharist is the way to heaven. The hebrew Catholics have a great view on this.

[url="http://hebrewcatholic.org/PrayerandSpirituality/eucharistjewishm.html"]http://hebrewcatholic.org/PrayerandSpiritu...istjewishm.html[/url]

[url="http://hebrewcatholic.org/PrayerandSpirituality/eucharistjewisht.html"]http://hebrewcatholic.org/PrayerandSpiritu...istjewisht.html[/url]

[Livin_the_MASS]

Agreed, The Eucharist is the way, for it is God Himself. The Sacrament of Sacraments. We become one with God, vices are removed, charity filled and overflowing!

God Bless You for that statement!

In the Love of Christ,
Jason

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 26 2004, 04:37 PM'] I know SIMPLE isn't the preferred debating style around here.

The question, as I understood it, was regarding salvation. Jesus pretty much gave the anwer if one takes the time to fetter out the answer.

No Papal Bulls or Encyclicals can override the [color=red][b]RED LETTERS[/b][/color], hence my succinct reply.

[PS: for those need Bible 101, the RED LETTERS are the words spoken by Jesus in better copies of the Bible.] [/quote]
These and other red letters compell me to pay heed to the voice of Christ's Church:
Jn 16:13; Jn 14:26; Lk 10:16; Mt 16:17-18; Jn 21:17;

[Bruce S]

[quote]

John 16:13

The Work of the Holy Spirit

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[1] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."
[/quote]

This talkes about the coming of the Holy Spirit, a pre-Pentecost prediction. If anything, it buttresses the Pentecostal idea of the way we are to operate.

[quote]John 14:26

22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
"Come now; let us leave.
[/quote]

Another Holy Spirit passage, applicable to all Christians.

[quote] Luke 10:16

5"When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.' 6If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you. 7Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house. 

8"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.' 10But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11'Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' 12I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

13"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.[2]
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." [/quote]

This passage is directed at Evangelists trying to bring the good news to the Jews ... it is not a passage that is applicable to the Catholic Church being a dominant denomination?

[quote]Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[1] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[2] will not overcome it.[3][/quote]

Every serious scholar, including many Christians before 1500 [read Catholics] interpreted the "rock" as the "belief" .. the foundation was the KNOWLEDGE that Jesus was the Messiah. The big rock little rock Greek translations, which I'm assuming everyone around here knows all about, so I'm not going to rehash those here.

It would seem that scripture plucking isn't going to prove any point here jason.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 27 2004, 04:51 AM'] Every serious scholar, including many Christians before 1500 [read Catholics] interpreted the "rock" as the "belief" .. the foundation was the KNOWLEDGE that Jesus was the Messiah. The big rock little rock Greek translations, which I'm assuming everyone around here knows all about, so I'm not going to rehash those here.
[/quote]
I'll reply to the others later because I'm about to sign off. But I couldn't resist throwing this out real quick...

Some top protestant scholars on the "rock" of Mt 16.

[quote]David Hill
Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturer in the Department of Biblical Studies, University of Sheffield, England

On this rock I will build my church: the word-play goes back to Aramaic tradition. It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church. The disciple becomes, as it were, the foundation stone of the community. Attempts to interpret the “rock” as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely. (“The Gospel of Matthew,” The New Century Bible Commentary, (London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1972), 261.)  [/quote]

[quote]Suzanne de Dietrich
Presbyterian theologian

The play on words in verse 18 indicates the Aramaic origin of the passage. The new name contains a promise. “Simon,” the fluctuating, impulsive disciple, will, by the grace of God, be the “rock” on which God will build the new community. (The Layman's Bible Commentary: Matthew, vol. 16, (Atlanta: John Knox Press, 1961), 93.)  [/quote]

[quote]Craig L. Blomberg
Baptist and Professor of New Testament, Denver Seminary

Acknowledging Jesus as The Christ illustrates the appropriateness of Simon’s nickname “Peter” (Petros = rock). This is not the first time Simon has been called Peter (cf. John 1:42), but it is certainly the most famous. Jesus’ declaration, “You are Peter,” parallels Peter’s confession, “You are the Christ,” as if to say, “Since you can tell me who I am, I will tell you who you are.” The expression “this rock” almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following “the Christ” in v. 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word “rock” (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification. (The New American Commentary: Matthew, vol. 22, (Nashville: Broadman, 1992), 251-252.)  [/quote]

[quote]Donald A. Carson III
Baptist and Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Seminary

Although it is true that petros and petra can mean “stone” and “rock” respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and most probably kepha was used in both clauses (“you are kepha” and “on this kepha”), since the word was used both for a name and for a “rock.” The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name. (The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.)
The word Peter petros, meaning “rock” (Gk 4377), is masculine, and in Jesus’ follow-up statement he uses the feminine word petra (Gk 4376). On the basis of this change, many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretations, it is doubtful whether many would have taken “rock” to be anything or anyone other than Peter. (Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary – New Testament, vol. 2, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1994), 78.)  [/quote]

[quote]Gerhard Maier
Leading conservative evangelical Lutheran theologian

Nowadays a broad consensus has emerged which – in accordance with the words of the text – applies the promise to Peter as a person. On this point liberal (H. J. Holtzmann, E. Schweiger) and conservative (Cullmann, Flew) theologians agree, as well as representatives of Roman Catholic exegesis. (“The Church in the Gospel of Matthew: Hermeneutical Analysis of the Current Debate,” Biblical Interpretation and Church Text and Context, (Flemington Markets, NSW: Paternoster Press, 1984), 58.)  [/quote]

[quote]William Hendriksen
Member of the Reformed Christian Church, Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary

The meaning is, “You are Peter, that is Rock, and upon this rock, that is, on you, Peter I will build my church.” Our Lord, speaking Aramaic, probably said, “And I say to you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.” Jesus, then, is promising Peter that he is going to build his church on him! I accept this view. (New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1973), 647.)  [/quote]

Edited March 27, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Laudate_Dominum]

I can't forget my other quotes from some of the most distinguished sources of protestant Biblical scholarship.


"Binding" and "loosing" were technical rabbinical terms, which meant to "forbid" and "permit" with reference to the interpretation of the law, and secondarily to "condemn" or "place under the ban" or "acquit." Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority to determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation and the Spirit's leading (Jn 16:13), and to demand obedience from the Church. "Binding and loosing" represent the legislative and judicial powers of the papacy and the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn 20:23). St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these powers by name and in the singular, making him preeminent. (also keys/steward,rock)

[quote]"Isaiah 22:15 undoubtedly lies behind this [Matthew 16:19] saying. The keys are the symbol of authority, and Roland de Vaux (Ancient Israel, pg 129) rightly sees here the same authority as that vested in the vizier, the master of the house, the chamberlain of the royal household in ancient Israel. Eliakim is described as having the same authority in Isaiah;...and Jotham as regent is also described as 'over the household'(II Kings 15:5)." - W.F. Albright and C.S. Mann, The Anchor Bible: Matthew, (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1971), pg 196.  [/quote]

[quote]"And what about the 'keys of the kingdom'? The keys of a royal or noble establishment were entrusted to the cheif steward or majordomo; he carried them on his shoulder in earlier times, and there they served as a badge of the authority entrusted to him. About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palack in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim:...(Isaiah 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward." - F.F. Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus, (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1983), pg 143-144.  [/quote]

[quote]"The keys of the house are delivered to those who are appointed to be stewards, that they may have the full power of opening and shutting according to their own pleasure. By 'the house of David' is meant 'the royal house.' This mode of expression was customary among the people, because it had been promised to David that his kingdom would be forever... That is the reason why the kingdom was commonly called 'the house of David'." - John Calvin, Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Isaiah, vol 2, trans. William Pringle, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdemans, 1948), pg 136.  [/quote]

[quote]"The 'kingdom of heaven' is represented by authoritative teaching, the promulgation of authoritative Halakha that let's heaven's power rule in earthly things...Peter's rold as holder of the keys is fulfilled now, on earth, as chief teacher of the church." - M. Eugene Boring, "Matthew", in Pheme Perkins and Others, eds., [U]The New Interpreter's Bible. vol 8, (Nashville, TN: Abington Press, 1995), pg 346.  [/quote]

[quote]"The keeper of the keys has authority within the house as administrator and teacher (cf. Isa. 22:20-25, ..). The language of binding and loosing is rabbinic terminology for authoritative teaching, for having authority to interpret the Torah and apply it to particular cases, declaring what is permitted and what is not permitted. Jesus, who has taught with authority (7:29) and has given his authority to his disciples (10:1,8) here gives his primary disciple the authority to teach in his name." - The New Interpreter's Bible. vol. 8, (Nashville, TN: Abington Press, 1995), pg 346.  [/quote]

[quote]"The image of keys (plural) perhaps suggests not so much the porter, who controls admission to the house, as the steward, who regulates its administration (Is 22:22, in conjunction with 22:15). The issue then is not that of admission to the church (which is not what the kingdom of heaven means; see pp.  45-47) but an authority derived from a 'delegation of God's sovereignty.'" - Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, (Downer's Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1993), pg 256.  [/quote]

[Livin_the_MASS]

Bruce,

[quote]It would seem that scripture plucking isn't going to prove any point here jason.[/quote]

The Scripture I quoted was given by The Vicar of Christ. You can nit pick all you want. You prove no point to me in your statements. The Pope has spoken, you have no debate. The Truth is the Truth.

God Bless,
Jason

[Bruce S]

[quote]The Pope has spoken, [u]you have no debate.[/u] The Truth is the Truth. [/quote]

Ah, the APPEAL TO AUTHORITY clause. Gotcha.

Oh, did anyone happen to mention that 1/2 the Christians in the world DO NOT agree that the Pope is THE AUTHORITY on these matters?

Of course, they are all heretics ... we know that, but funny how so many heretics seem to love Jesus ...

Oh well, I guess God will sort it all out in the end anyway.

That dogmatic approach to things lead to a lot of firewood being consumed in the middle ages.... :angry:

[Livin_the_MASS]

I'm not sure I get the point of your posts?

This thread I started was to clear up the Salvation issue!

Now we are talking about Scripture and Authority, which I believe in and follow the Authority of the Pope and the Authority of Christ's Catholic Church.

I'm confussed

Edited March 27, 2004 by Jason

[popestpiusx]

Jason, no offence but your debating technique leaves a lot to be desired. As Aquinas said, appeal to authority is the weakest argument (sorry...Thomistic humor). We must prove our points using principles upon which we already agree. If someone doen't believe the Pope is infalible (as Bruce does not) then appealing to the Pope will not convince him. Just a thought.

[Livin_the_MASS]

So am i to deny Truth? Surely Not!

I gave links for info bro. I don't need to type them all out!

God Bless,
Jason

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 27 2004, 10:07 AM'] Oh, did anyone happen to mention that 1/2 the Christians in the world DO NOT agree that the Pope is THE AUTHORITY on these matters?
[/quote]
If you are not a sheep of Peter; if you are not being fed by this Rock, I think there is much to be desired.
Its not too hard to see if you ask me, any honest protestant scholar must admit the implications of the Biblical data, and the historical testimony really makes it so clear that to attack the chair of Peter is almost outright blasphemy.

And being a heretic does not mean that one cannot know and love Christ, but you cannot know the full truth about Christ. Those outside the fold preach a different Christ and a different Gospel. It is truly a cause for lamenting and grieving that so many are decieved and led astray.

This is no trivial matter, we are talking about knowing the full truth, we are talking about receiving Christ substantially into your body and soul, about walking in the midst of the heavenly hosts and fighting the battle along side the armies of God, with the seven trumpet blasts and the Ark of God always before you. To behold this great sign which has appeared in the heavens, to behold your mother. I long and pray that this day will find you Bruce. For charity's sake I will it.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]Oh, did anyone happen to mention that 1/2 the Christians in the world DO NOT agree that the Pope is THE AUTHORITY on these matters[/quote]

Actually...all the protestant heretics combined add to a mere 500,000,000. Catholics number 1,000,000,000. Therefore, that is only 1/3, and of course, protestants are not Christian. So, actually NO Christian disagree that the Pope has that authority.

[Bruce S]

[quote]the historical testimony really makes it so clear that to attack the chair of Peter is almost outright blasphemy.

[/quote]

No problem with the chair, it is those GUYS sitting in that chair from time to time that give one pause.

AND HEY...

Whatever happened to the mobil chair they used to use when I was a child? Like a rickshaw with people carrying around the Pope on a gilded throne. That used to be impressive, why did they stop with that one?

[quote]New Ulm, Minn., Bishop Raymond Lucker spoke of John's "special warmth and openness." He noted the pontiff's humor. Said Lucker: "Once asked, `How many people work in the Vatican?' John responded, `About half.'"

Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli was elected pope in 1958. At the time it was still the practice to carry the pope in and out of St. Peter's on a papal chair. The story was told that John, a rotund man and described as "looking more like a pizza-maker than a pope," immediately after being elected pontiff, gave a raise to the men who had to carry him on his papal throne.
[/quote]

When I was a kid, we loved this man, now I remember why...


[PS: just to make the point, as an ex, I used to follow these things...]

Edited March 27, 2004 by Bruce S

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 27 2004, 02:50 PM']
No problem with the chair, it is those GUYS sitting in that chair from time to time that give one pause.

AND HEY...

Whatever happened to the mobil chair they used to use when I was a child? Like a rickshaw with people carrying around the Pope on a gilded throne. That used to be impressive, why did they stop with that one?



When I was a kid, we loved this man, now I remember why...


[PS: just to make the point, as an ex, I used to follow these things...] [/quote]
LOL! You crack me up sometimes Bruce..

I must admit, you have a point.