Time To Get This Salvation Thing Straight

[Livin_the_MASS]

Time to get this Salvation thing striaght, check it out!
Pope John The II (general audience of December 9, 1987)
Quote from the book "A Cathechesis on The Creed John Paul II Jesus Son and Savior"


[quote]Christ's miracles recorded in the Gospels are signs of the divine omnipotence and of the salvific power of the Son of Man. They also reveal God's love for humanity---particularly for those who suffer, who are in need, who implore healing, pardon and compassion, They are therefore signs of the merciful love proclaimed in the Old Testaments (cf. Encyclical Dives in Misericordia). Especially the reading of the Gospel makes us understand and almost feel that Jesus' miracles have their source in God's loving and merciful heart which lives and beats in his human heart. Jesus performs them to overcome every kind of evil existing in the world: physical evil, moral evil which is sin, and finally him who is "the father of sin" in human history, namely, satan.

The miracles are therefore "for man." In harmony with the redemptive finality of His mission, they are works of Jesus which re-established the good where evil had lurked, producing disorder and confusion. Those who accepted them and who were present at them were aware of this fact, so much so that, according to Mark, "they were exceedingly astonished and said, 'He has done all these things well. He makes the deaf hear and the mute speak'" (Mk 7:37)

An attentive study of the Gospel texts reveal that no other motive than love for humanity, merciful love, explains the "mighty deeds and signs" of the Son of Man. In the Old Testament, Elijah made use of "fire from heaven" to confirm his power as prophet and to punish incredulity (cf. 2 Kgs 1:10) When the Apostles James and John sought to induce Jesus to punish with "fire from heaven" a Samaritan village which had refused hospitality, he definitely forbade them to make such a request. The evangeslist mentions categorically that "he turned and rebuked them" (Lk 9:55). (Many codices including the Vulgate added, "You do not know of what spirit you are; for the Son of Man came not to destroy men's lives but to save them.") Jesus never worked a miracle to punish anyone, not even the guilty......

If we accept the Gospels account of Jesus' miracles--- and there is no reason not to accept it other than prejudice against the supernatural--- one cannot call into doubt a unique logic which links together all those signs and demonstates their derivation from God's salvific economy. They serve to reveal his love for us, that merciful love which overcomes evil with good, as is shown by the very presence and action of Jesus Christ in the world. Inasmuch as they are inserted into this economy, the "wonders and signs" are an object of our faith in the plan of God's salvation and in the mystery of redemption effected by Christ.[/quote]

Again to limit ones salvation is wrong. The Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth and is the One True Church. It is different if one rejects this fact, but for those who are learning or do not know of the Gospel, it is wrong for one to judge this way. Judgement and Salvation is ultimaley up to God, He desires the Salvation of souls, I don't care who you are. If you reject it that is something different, but to limit one salvation is wrong.(Especially the ones learning, having the desire to really learn, or those who don't know better, This is where us Catholic Christians come in to preach the good news! That God is merciful and has A CHURCH and to teach about the sacraments and His teachings.) Again God desires the Salvation of souls, He leaves it up to us to decide,(our free will) but He never gives up on us. And to say babies who are aborted can't go to heaven, is putting yourself into a high seat! I will say in this matter "Jesus I trust in You" and that "with God all things are possiable." Again Judgement is up to God in these issues, not us. We just give witness plant seeds and pray and let the rest up the God.

In the Love of Christ,
Jason

[popestpiusx]

Hey jason, join our debate on limbo. I am not sure what room it is in. By the way, where in Indiana are you from?

[CatholicCrusader]

First, the Pope didn't say you cannot limit salvation by way of Dogma (of course, you can). Secondly, that is by far a Dogmatic declaration...a Papal audience?

[quote]Again to limit ones salvation is wrong[/quote]

The Chuch limits salvation to baptism and profession of all beliefs of the One, True, Holy, Apostolic Roman Catholic Church of Our Lord. Even protestants claim salvation is based upon believe in Our Lord as God and "personal Lord and Saviour" (which is full of errors, that one partial phrase). But, in any event, even protestants claim that salvation is limited. Surely you are no farther left than they. God bless.

[CatholicCrusader]

I'm sorry that statement was not meant to seem sarcastic. It should say: Secondly, that is FAR FROM a Dogmatic declaration...a Papal audience?

[popestpiusx]

By the way, if it is wrong "to say babies who are aborted can't go to heaven," then condemn nearly every who commented on the issue prior to about 30 years ago (siants, popes, theologians, and even councils). I'm not saying limbo is a dogma (though I know a number of theologians who would say that it is), but it is at least a legitimate position and quite defensible. It is not putting ourselves in a high seat, but rather using perfectly good reason applied to what we do know as revealed by God: Baptism (in some form) is necessary for salvation, sanctifying grace is availible only through the sacraments of the Church, and no one can be condemned without having commited an actual sin. Now I know there are many different theories on how it can come about that unbaptised infants receive sanctifying grace. I personally think they are a bit of a stretch, but others believe they are legit. I leave that for the debate.

[CatholicCrusader]

Is limbo in the Back Alley?

[popestpiusx]

I don't think it was moved, but it may have been. Let me see if I can find it. I ressurected it just the other day. It was a gret debate. Most enjoyable.

[Bruce S]

Read the [color=red][b]RED LETTERS[/b][/color], everything else is just divinely inspired commentary.

You find the question VERY clearly answered there.

[Livin_the_MASS]

If you know you need to be baptized and do not do so, than thats different!

To reject the Truth is different!

Even so Judgement is up to God and God alone, not you or me.

I pray for those Outside the Church and Inside the Church!

God desires salvation of souls, period....

Are you saying God is not merciful?

Don't put yourself in His seat, you might have to give an account for it one day!!!

Pope John is correct in his document, period.

The Pope has spoken.

Don't play games with dogma and words!



popestpiusx, no offense but I will keep that private! I' ll talk to you later about that.

[quote]Hey jason, join our debate on limbo. I am not sure what room it is in. By the way, where in Indiana are you from?[/quote]

God Bless,
Jason

[popestpiusx]

Here it is: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=8344&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=8344&hl=[/url]

[popestpiusx]

Hey, no problem jason. I understand. Just curious cause I am from there originally.

Bruce,
What the heck are you talking about?

Jason again,

of course God is merciful, that is why he would not send anyone to hell who has not comitted an actual sin. I'm not playing games with dogma and words. I am just reading the writings of the saints, popes and councils. Read them for yourself. Then refute them if you can.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 26 2004, 04:27 PM'] Hey, no problem jason. I understand. Just curious cause I am from there originally.

Bruce,
What the heck are you talking about?

Jason again,

of course God is merciful, that is why he would not send anyone to hell who has not comitted an actual sin. I'm not playing games with dogma and words. I am just reading the writings of the saints, popes and councils. Read them for yourself. Then refute them if you can. [/quote]
My statement was not directed to you but CatholicCrusader!!

[Bruce S]

I know SIMPLE isn't the preferred debating style around here.

The question, as I understood it, was regarding salvation. Jesus pretty much gave the anwer if one takes the time to fetter out the answer.

No Papal Bulls or Encyclicals can override the [color=red][b]RED LETTERS[/b][/color], hence my succinct reply.

[PS: for those need Bible 101, the RED LETTERS are the words spoken by Jesus in better copies of the Bible.]

[CatholicCrusader]

This is the last time I am making an exception to this Dogma. From hence henceforth, I am not going to put any stipulations or "footnotes", but, Jason, I need to clarify for you. I am not saying God cannot saved them. I am stating what the Church has taught throughout the ages infallibly, and I cannot apologize for professing the unwavering Church teaching. I merely explain the Dogma to the best of my ability, including the Dogma defined by a Council and the Pope. I just don't see how to say "if you are outside the Church you can be saved" when reading it. I think I said this on another thread, it's like the protestants taking "This IS My Body" and making it "This is NOT My Body." It is the exact opposite of what the Dogma says. For more in depth description, check my latest post (or few) in Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in this "phorum". God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I did!

Read the Saint's, St. Faustina in this case!

Even the demons know of His Justice!

He wants His Divine Mercy Glorified!

Just like you can't contradict Scripture, you can not do the same with the teachings of the Church.

As The Church grows in faith, the Teachings blossom, they don't change.

The Holy Spirit is taking care of it. I trust and Love JPII with all my heart (what Pa Pa says, than it is!)

Read the title of the book again, it is a teaching of Jesus Christ Son and Savior!

God Bless
Jason