Charismatic Catholics

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1866578' date='May 13 2009, 08:03 PM']You have the Holy Spirit before you speak in tongues, but you are not looking for a sign, it is a gift given by God, to help you grow in relationship with Him, Others, and the Church. It is a sign for an unbeliever but also a sign for believers because when Peter and Paul laid hands on someone, that person began to speak in tongues. Paul says to seek the gifts (Charismata) The Holy Spirit can come without manifesting the gift of tongues, but when the Charismatic gifts are abundant, they allow the Holy Spirit to work more intensely (with proper discernment)[/quote]

Where in the Bible does St. Paul say that tongues are for believers and unbelievers? I'm only aware of the part where St. Paul says that it's for the unbelievers and prophesy is for believers. Maybe you could give documentation further.

In regards to saying that we have the holy spirit before the tongues, I'm assuming then that you take the position that we recieve the holy spirit at Christmation/Confirmation correct? In regards to saying that you don't ask for it but it's given, I'm curious then why the majority of charismatics, particularly those in the "first wave" of it, were asking for it, praying for it and even wrote doctrine that said that it's the only proof that someone has the holy spirit [protestant doctrine]? I'm also curious as to why those, such as the desert fathers and the thousands of saints that came before it, for almost 2 thousand years before, never spoke in it and as you stated, "the first wave" didn't start until modern times with Protestants?

[alot of information I know...]


[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1866585' date='May 13 2009, 08:14 PM']Silence is not the same as approval...[/quote]

I wasn't aware, I thought that His Holiness Pope John Paul II endorsed it? Atleast from what I'd been told.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1866619' date='May 13 2009, 08:54 PM']I asked a question, and stated a fact. The Church has not officially to my knowledge approved the Charismatic movement. That is very important. I'm sorry that you are upset but I am none of the things you accuse me of being. I pray for everyone on this board every night. I in no way believe I am better than anyone, I am like St Paul chief of sinners.[/quote]

Do you even pray for me?

I'd like to hear what everyone has to say on this issue, who knows... maybe I'll be convinced but then again maybe it will solidify my disbelief in it too, who knows.

Reza

[saintwannabe 777]

ADDRESS OF THE HOLY FATHER
POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO LEADERS OF RENEWAL IN THE SPIRIT

Saturday, 4 April 1998



1. I cordially greet you, the leaders of Renewal in the Spirit in Italy and, through you, I greet all the Italian charismatic communities, extending an affectionate thought to those who will participate in the solemn convention on the Holy Spirit, organized by you in Rimini from 30 April to 3 May next.

We are meeting in the year that, within the framework of preparation for the Great Jubilee, has been dedicated to the Holy Spirit, to invite Christians to rediscover the presence and wonderful works of the Spirit in the history of salvation, in the life of the Church, in the world and in the life of every disciple of Jesus. It is a year that you members of the Renewal are called to live with special intensity and commitment.

The Catholic charismatic movement is one of the many fruits of the Second Vatican Council, which, like a new Pentecost, led to an extraordinary flourishing in the Church's life of groups and movements particularly sensitive to the action of the Spirit. How can we not give thanks for the precious spiritual fruits that the Renewal has produced in the life of the Church and in the lives of so many people? How many lay faithful - men, women, young people, adults and the elderly - have been able to experience in their own lives the amazing power of the Spirit and his gifts! How many people have rediscovered the faith, the joy of prayer, the power and beauty of the Word of God, translating all this into generous service in the Church's mission! How many lives have been profoundly changed! For all this today, together with you, I wish to praise and thank the Holy Spirit.

2. You are an ecclesial movement. Therefore, all those criteria of ecclesiality of which I wrote in Christifideles laici (cf. n. 30) must be expressed in your lives, especially faithful adherence to the Church's Magisterium, filial obedience to the Bishops and a spirit of service towards local Churches and parishes.

In this regard, I have learned that recently the Permanent Council of the Italian Episcopal Conference approved the Statutes of your movement and wished to present the Renewal as "a comforting experience of Christian life, worthy of being indicated for its fervent encouragement of numerous ecclesial communities". Very eloquent words, which confirm how the path you have chosen is one of communion and close collaboration with the Bishops. And, in today's world, confused by extreme relativism and subjectivism, this is the best guarantee of remaining faithful to the Truth.

One of the Church's most urgent tasks today is the formation of the lay faithful. "The fundamental objective of the formation of the lay faithful is an ever-clearer discovery of one's vocation and the ever-greater willingness to live it so as to fulfil one's mission" (Christifideles laici, n. 58).

Therefore, this must be one of your priorities. In today's secularized world, which offers models of life devoid of spiritual values, it is a task which is ever more urgent. Faith dies when it is reduced to custom, to habit, to a purely emotional experience. It needs to be cultivated, helped to grow, at both the personal and the community level. I know that Renewal in the Spirit does all it can to respond to this need, always seeking new forms and ways that are better suited to the requirements of people today. I thank you for what you do and I ask you to persevere in your commitment.

3. Dear brothers and sisters, welcome the Holy Spirit into your hearts with the docility with which the Virgin Mary welcomed him. Always allow yourselves to be surprised by God and shun complacency with his gifts. May the Spirit, the interior Teacher, strengthen you in faith and make you ever more conformed to Christ. In this world, so often permeated with sadness and uncertainty, may you have the courage to co-operate with the Spirit in a new, great outpouring of love and hope for all mankind.

I hope that your convention in Rimini, in this year dedicated to the Holy Spirit, may become a milestone on your journey towards the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000. May the fire of the Spirit be kindled in the hearts of all who will take part in it!

I conclude with the words of St Paul: "And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with fruits of righteousness which come through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God" (Phil 1:9- 11).

I expect you all in St Peter's Square on 30 May next for my meeting with ecclesial movements and new communities. I am certain that you will not miss such an important gathering!

To the whole Renewal in the Spirit in Italy, my affectionate paternal Blessing.

ADDRESS OF THE HOLY FATHER
POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
FOR CATHOLIC CHARISMATIC LEADERS

30 October 1998



Dear Brothers and Sisters,

1. In greeting the International Conference for Catholic Charismatic Leaders,“I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed throughout the world” (Rom 1:8). The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has helped many Christians to rediscover the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in their lives, in the life of the Church and in the world; and this rediscovery has awakened in them a faith in Christ filled with joy, a great love of the Church and a generous dedication to her evangelizing mission. In this year of the Holy Spirit, I join you in praise of God for the precious fruits which he has wished to bring to maturity in your communities and, through them, in the particular Churches.

2. As leaders of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, one of your prime tasks is to safeguard the Catholic identity of the charismatic communities spread throughout the world, stirring them always to maintain a close and hierarchical link with the Bishops and the Pope. You belong to an ecclesial movement; and the word “ecclesial” implies a precise task of Christian formation, involving a deep convergence of faith and life. The enthusiastic faith which enlivens your communities must be accompanied by a Christian formation which is comprehensive and faithful to the Church’s teaching. From a solid formation will spring a spirituality deeply grounded in the sources of the Christian life and capable of responding to the crucial questions posed by the culture of our day. In my recent Encyclical Letter Fides et Ratio, I warned against a fideism which fails to recognize the importance of the work of reason not only for an understanding of the faith, but even for the act of faith itself.

3. The theme of your Conference, “Let the Fire Fall Again!”, recalls the words of Christ: “I have come to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!” (Lk 12:49). As we look to the Great Jubilee, these words resound with all their force. The Word of God made flesh has brought to us the fire of love and the truth which saves. On the threshold of the Third Millennium of the Christian era, how great is the evangelical challenge: “go and work in the vineyard today” (Mt 21:28)!

I accompany your Conference with my prayers, trusting that it will bear rich spiritual fruit for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal throughout the world. May Mary, Bride of the Spirit and Mother of Christ, watch over all that you do in the name of her Son. To all of you, to your communities and to your loved ones, I gladly impart my Apostolic Blessing.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1866659' date='May 13 2009, 11:13 PM']In regards to saying that we have the holy spirit before the tongues, I'm assuming then that you take the position that we recieve the holy spirit at Christmation/Confirmation correct? In regards to saying that you don't ask for it but it's given, I'm curious then why the majority of charismatics, particularly those in the "first wave" of it, were asking for it, praying for it and even wrote doctrine that said that it's the only proof that someone has the holy spirit [protestant doctrine]? I'm also curious as to why those, such as the desert fathers and the thousands of saints that came before it, for almost 2 thousand years before, never spoke in it and as you stated, "the first wave" didn't start until modern times with Protestants?[/quote]

The doctrine that we don't have the Holy Spirit before baptism and confirmation is incorrect. This is not what most Charismatics at least Catholics believe. We believe that The Baptism in the Spirit is when a person becomes more in a relationship with the Holy Spirit. Charismatics pray to be in a deeper relationship with Jesus. Padre Pio, was Charismatic. Look into Him. The Cure D'Ars spoke in tongues. Theresa of Avila spoke in tongues. I'm sorry but those are some heavy hitters right there.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1866633' date='May 13 2009, 11:02 PM']Really, not approved? My bro come on now.[/quote]

"To my knowledge" it had not been approved. That is not a attack. I knew that the Vatican had given recognition to the moments existence, but not the approval of the movement.

[saintwannabe 777]

Oh and Reza my dude, let me ask you a question, how many years have we been waiting for Yeshua Hamashiach to return? Thousands. God can do anything he wants in time. So I don't know why that time factor is an issue, besides the saints I've just mentioned.

[RezaMikhaeil]

You have yet to prove that Theresa of Avila spoke in tongues. I read your quotes in the past and there was no clear evidence of that.

Reza

[Guest]

No love.....it's sad man.....condemnation condemnation condemnation.........It reallly does make me sad........I would love to hear what Jesus has to say about this....Its a trip....lol

Edited May 14, 2009 by Guest

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1866644' date='May 13 2009, 11:04 PM']Alright, but did you see what I posted? You made a statement and I have evidence that contradicts it from JP the Great[/quote]

That post was directed to D.B.

[saintwannabe 777]

On a more well-documented note, St. Teresa of Avila, a doctor of the Church is especially noted for her contributions on the theology of prayer. (Doctor of the Church is essentially the highest status one can get, one must first be canonized as a saint and then be shown to be a saint of universal merit to the Church as a teacher.) In her classic work on prayer, "Interior Castle" (written essentially to codify her work so her detractors could examine it more closely), in Chapter 6 of the 6th mansion she speaks about "a strange kind of prayer, the nature of which one cannot ascertain," going on to say that even though they do not understand what they are saying at the time, they are filled with joy and love for God. In context, it seems pretty clear to me (and to others) she is talking about speaking in tongues.

[Guest]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1866686' date='May 13 2009, 11:24 PM']That post was directed to D.B.[/quote]

Dude your selfrighteous attitude towards saintwannabe777 was more then I could handle tonight. There was no love there at all bro. And on top of that you made him out to be a liar. I have no respect for that.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1866686' date='May 13 2009, 11:24 PM']That post was directed to D.B.[/quote]

Did you even read the documents I posted? Look at the words JP the Great uses to describe the movement? You are ignoring them

Pope John Paul II
To Catholic Charismatics
Seek to be active in life of your local Church
Pope John Paul II, November 9, 1996
Dear Friends in Christ,

1. With affection in the Lord I greet the participants in the Seventh International Meeting of the Catholic Fraternity of Covenant Communities and Fellowships. I thank you for your good wishes and prayers at this time when I am celebrating the 50th Anniversary of my priestly ordination. I see this as an expression of the communion which links you with the Successor of Peter and the universal Church, a communion which you feel deeply and which itself is a sublime gift of the Holy Spirit to Christ's followers.

You represent communities of the Charismatic Movement from around the world, which, in their variety, bear witness to the spiritual gifts which the Holy Spirit is bestowing on the Church even in our own day (cf. Christifideles laici, n. 24). How can we fail to praise God for the abundant fruit which in recent decades the Renewal in the Spirit has brought about in the lives of individuals and in communities? Countless people have come to appreciate the importance of Sacred Scripture for Christian living they have acquired a new sense of the value of prayer and a profound yearning for holiness, many have returned to the sacraments, and a great number of men and women have achieved a deeper understanding of their baptismal call, and have committed themselves to the Church's mission with admirable dedication. In thanking God for all of this, I repeat the words which I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio: "As the third millennium of the Redemption draws near, God is preparing a great springtime for Christianity, and we can already see its first signs" (n. 86).

[saintwannabe 777]

"In the midst of these experiences that are both painful and delightful together, our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. What I’m saying seems like gibberish, but certainly the experience takes place in this way, for the joy is so excessive the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul praise our Lord. All its activity is directed to this praise. Oh, how many festivals and demonstrations of the soul would organize, if it could, that all might know its joy! . . . The devil cannot give this experience, because there is so much interior joy in the very intimate part of the soul and so much peace; and all the happiness stirs the soul to the praises of God.

Oh, what blessed madness, Sisters! If only God would give it to us all. And what a favor He has granted you by bringing you to this house where, when the Lord gives you this favor and you tell others about it, you will receive help rather than the criticism you would receive in the world.

Sometimes it is a particular joy for me to see these Sisters gathered together and feeling such great joy at being in the monastery that they praise our Lord as much as possible. It is seen very clearly that their praises rise from the interior of the soul. I would want you to praise Him often, Sisters; for the one who begins, awakens the others. In what better way can you, when together, use your tongues than in the praises of God since we have so many reasons for praising Him?

May it please His Majesty to give us this prayer often since it is so safe and beneficial; to acquire it is impossible because it is something very supernatural. And it may last a whole day. The soul goes about like a person who has drunk a great deal but not so much as to be drawn out of his senses. " [url="http://www.davenevins.com/loveofgod/topics/more/tongues-described.htm"]http://www.davenevins.com/loveofgod/topics...s-described.htm[/url]

From the Interior Castle.

God Bless Reza

Edited May 14, 2009 by saintwannabe 777

[KnightofChrist]

Did you miss post 79? Maybe wasn't long after that, that a new page was made. I stated...

"To my knowledge" it had not been approved. That is not a attack. I knew that the Vatican had given recognition to the moments existence, but not the approval of the movement."

Maybe I need to reword it so I'm not seen as a big ol meany.

I did not know it had been approved. I never saw before evidence of it. I knew the Holy See had acknowledged the group's existence but I did not know that the group had been given approval.

But again approval of the Group is not approval of it's liturgical practices.

I dont know if you believe it, D.B. clearly doesnt, but I have shown charity to you both. Because I question many of the groups actions and wish to have a civil debate about it does not make me uncharitable. May we have a debate about the debate and not of each other and remember being civil and charitable does not mean we will agree?


[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1866691' date='May 13 2009, 11:27 PM']Did you even read the documents I posted? Look at the words JP the Great uses to describe the movement? You are ignoring them

Pope John Paul II
To Catholic Charismatics
Seek to be active in life of your local Church
Pope John Paul II, November 9, 1996
Dear Friends in Christ,

1. With affection in the Lord I greet the participants in the Seventh International Meeting of the Catholic Fraternity of Covenant Communities and Fellowships. I thank you for your good wishes and prayers at this time when I am celebrating the 50th Anniversary of my priestly ordination. I see this as an expression of the communion which links you with the Successor of Peter and the universal Church, a communion which you feel deeply and which itself is a sublime gift of the Holy Spirit to Christ's followers.

You represent communities of the Charismatic Movement from around the world, which, in their variety, bear witness to the spiritual gifts which the Holy Spirit is bestowing on the Church even in our own day (cf. Christifideles laici, n. 24). How can we fail to praise God for the abundant fruit which in recent decades the Renewal in the Spirit has brought about in the lives of individuals and in communities? Countless people have come to appreciate the importance of Sacred Scripture for Christian living they have acquired a new sense of the value of prayer and a profound yearning for holiness, many have returned to the sacraments, and a great number of men and women have achieved a deeper understanding of their baptismal call, and have committed themselves to the Church's mission with admirable dedication. In thanking God for all of this, I repeat the words which I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio: "As the third millennium of the Redemption draws near, God is preparing a great springtime for Christianity, and we can already see its first signs" (n. 86).[/quote]

Edited May 14, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1866713' date='May 13 2009, 11:45 PM']Did you miss post 79? Maybe wasn't long after that, that a new page was made. I stated...

"To my knowledge" it had not been approved. That is not a attack. I knew that the Vatican had given recognition to the moments existence, but not the approval of the movement."

Maybe I need to reword it so I'm not seen as a big ol meany.

I did not know it had been approved. I never saw before evidence of it. I knew the Holy See had acknowledged the group's existence but I did not know that the group had been given approval.

But again approval of the Group is not approval of it's liturgical practices.

You may not believe it, as D.B does, but I have shown charity to you both. Because I question many of the groups actions and wish to have a civil debate about it does not make me uncharitable. May we have a debate about the debate and not of each other and remember being civil and charitable does not mean we will agree?[/quote]

Okay my bro, this is different than what I thought you were saying before. I thought you were denying the Church's approval of this movement on purpose. I apologize.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Even after reading her writing in the full context, I don't see it as you do. I can see that Charismatics would take this to try and prove their point, just as they do with 1 Corinthians 14:2 but I don't think that's the context. Don't let me stop you thou...

Here's the full article: [url="http://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catholicclassics/stteresa/castle/interiorcastle4.cfm#CHAPTER%20VI/6"]http://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/cath...#CHAPTER%20VI/6[/url]

I'm still anticipating your response to St. Paul's writings that tongues are for non believers and prophesy are for believers...and of course knight of Christ's response to your posts, if he returns.

Reza