Homosexuality & The Priesthood

[franciscanheart]

too many quote blocks. my response is coming in two posts.



[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']It was implied. When it comes to calling a spade a spade, it seems that homosexuals are a protected class, and I don’t see why.[/quote]
I don't think they're a protected class any more than African Americans were a protected class immediately following new civil rights laws. Homosexual persons are still persons. They are human, like you and me and everyone else here. To identify homosexuals as the key problem in abuse cases is ridiculous. When you start targeting one group of people because you don't like who or what they are, you are being a bully. You're discriminating and, in my opinion, being completely unfair. It's ignorance, in my mind.


[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']That’s understandable. Yet, no one blinked an eye when it was stated by another poster that most paedophiles are heterosexuals. Why the fuss when such a statement is made, but this time in regards to homosexuals?[/quote]
So all it's going to take for you to stop accusing homosexuals of being the downfall of our Church is for someone to say, "Don't hate on the heteros," a few times? Because if that's what it's going to take, ... no actually I won't do that. I think this is dumb.

If I were to ask you to look at the statistics of violent murders or serial rapists, and you came back with 80% of those crimes committed by heteros, what would be your solution to the problem? Rid the world of heteros? Bring in IVF to keep the population going?

It may seem extreme but this is the croutons you're spewing.

[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM'][color="#0000FF"][b]MOST[/b][/color] child abuse cases involved homosexual priests molesting post pubescent children.

[b]The studies have been done. And the undisputable conclusions have been drawn. [/b][/quote]
I'm not disputing the facts. A great many homosexual priests have harmed young men. I get it. I do not, however, agree that it is BECAUSE they are homosexual that they did those things. To say it is the reason/cause/whatever is to imply that every homosexual person not only wants to, but someday will, molest someone.

[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']Again, [b]MOST [/b]cases involved homosexual priests raping post pubescent boys.

Lets look at things this way: If there hadn't been a single homosexual priest, then there'd be 80% less child abuse cases.

Now, if we're going to minimise [b]dramatically[/b] the rate of child abuse, do we focus on the people causing 20% of the abuses, or the people causing 80% of the abuses?[/quote]
I say we focus on the real issue. Sick people are getting into our seminaries and leaving them, being placed in parishes and not being supervised closely enough. Even if they went into seminary healthy, where is the follow up? Many things can happen in a person's lifetime. Things get dug up without us even realizing it. What common thread is there in EACH of the cases?

Then, when you want to be reasonable and not be a bigot, let's look at why any priest ever has left the priesthood for sexual pleasure or indulged in some kind of love affair - either with an underage person or otherwise.

There is something MORE than their being homosexual that must have come into play. To be homosexual is not to desire a young man. Nor is it to desire young women.


[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']I beg to differ, along with many other Catholics.[/quote]
Never underestimate the power of idiots in large numbers.


[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']Homosexuality is one of the biggest problems facing the Latin rite Churches. I’m not surprised that there is a slow exodus from the Western to the Eastern Churches by the orthodox who are tired of the scandal.[/quote]
I again will disagree. If we're referring to the scandal of priests molesting children and the Church "doing nothing" about it, okay. But if you're going to pin that problem on homosexuals, I disagree and think you ridiculous.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']The child abuse cases were predominantly homosexual rape of children.[/quote]
Again, homosexuality and pedophilia are not one in the same.


[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']Watered down homilies and inability to teach orthodoxy within the faith seems to be the hallmark of priests with SSA.[/quote]
Are you JOKING? Please tell me you aren't serious. This is the hallmark of priests across the country!! I have one close to me in my own diocese. Guess what? He's straight. Has two daughters. He's a widower. He converted from the Anglican church. It happens. Again, what is going on in our seminaries? Where is the system headed?


[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']Homosexually orientated priests are not alone with teaching heterodoxy, but it is rare, in my opinion and many others, that known homosexual orientated priests stay faithful to Rome’s teachings.[/quote]
Your opinion, frankly, doesn't hold much weight with me. And I take your words as coming from one person. I can tell you there are hundreds of people that think the way I do and I'd probably be right. Homosexual priests is not the problem - at least not when they're properly prepared, in the right mindset, and when our seminaries are doing their job.

[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']Not too long ago, there was a priest who “came out of the closet” in the middle of a homily, and now he is leading a gay rights movement which is causing a backlash against the Catholic Church. Said priest has had his duties removed but the damage has been done. Not to mention that his "coming out of the closet" has vindicated all the pro homosexual activity CINO's who are demanding the Church changes her teaching on homosexualty (which she can't do as dogma is unchangeable although its understanding may develop).[/quote]
People who want to see change in the Church will grab onto anything. I still don't see your point here. There are people who disagree with the Church, always have been. A priest who "comes out" and leaves the priesthood is clearly dealing with something you couldn't understand. I'm not saying I condone his actions. I'm simply saying that you can't link this story with pedophilia and expect for everyone to just accept it.

It occurs to me more and more (especially within the last couple days what with all these threads on homosexuality popping up) that many, MANY people within the Church do not understand homosexuality, nor do they want to. Instead, they'd like to rid the Church of people with desires for the same sex. The Church does not teach that homosexual persons ought to be rid of. The Church recognizes who and what they are and teaches that they not ACT on their desires.

What I hear from the Church is counsel. What I hear here is bigotry.

[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']Just a rough and incomplete brainstorm:

1. Too much modernism
2. Homosexuality running rampant in seminaries (read the book “Goodbye Good Men” by Michael S Rose, and see for yourself how young orthodox men are being driven out from seminaries due to rampant homosexuality within formation institutions)
3. Modern feminism- which seems to always go hand in hand with homosexuality.
4. Women who won’t give it up [i]already[/i], and just accept that the Church will never ordain women
5. Not enough fellowship amongst the laity
6. Too much political correctness by priests

In summary, much of the problems in the Church are the cause of CINO’s (Catholic In Name Only) who are attacking the Church from within.[/quote]
I have my own thoughts on your "rampant homosexuality" statement but don't have time at the moment to address it.

[quote name='ariaane' post='1864299' date='May 11 2009, 03:24 PM']I have never said otherwise[/quote]
In order not to get into semantics, I'm going to say, "Okay." However, your wording and attitude certainly imply it.

[Guest]

Straight men molest boys ?

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='ariaane' post='1864344' date='May 11 2009, 04:22 PM']2. The threatening of the safety of post pubescent males.[/quote]
Again, you're kidding right? You again are equating homosexuality with pedophilia. This is ridiculous.


[quote name='ariaane' post='1864344' date='May 11 2009, 04:22 PM'][b]Altar servers are predominantly males[/b], post pubescent males, as the tradition of altar boys is meant to be conducive in encouraging boys to become future priests..[/quote]
Really? Because I'm pretty sure in my area we have more FEMALE altar servers. Make an issue of that in a separate thread, though; I can only take so much ignorance at a time.


[quote name='ariaane' post='1864344' date='May 11 2009, 04:22 PM']Why place vulnerable and unsuspecting males, who are often altar servers and choir boys, in an environment where there is an [b]increased likelihood[/b] of them being molested?[/quote]
Why be ridiculous and blame a whole category of people for the downfall of our seminaries? Why not look into the single common thread in all of these men? There must be one.

[quote name='ariaane' post='1864344' date='May 11 2009, 04:22 PM'][b][color="#000080"]Let’s stop looking at this as “lets protect homosexuals from being offended” but start looking at things through a “what will keep these young males the most safe”.[/color][/b]

It is the children who matter most, and not the hurt feelings of homosexuals priests.[/quote]
Again, the ignorance is glaring. Else the bigotry is flaring. Perhaps it's both.

This is not, at least on my part, an attempt to spare the feelings of any category of people. It is me begging and pleading that we look at the trend among ALL the priests. What was going on with ALL of them that got them where they were?

I'm asking that you stop for a moment and consider that not all homosexual men are inclined to sleep with young children - even post-pubescent. I'm asking that you stop to consider that there were heterosexual men who did this as well. How do you intend on keeping children safe in the quarters of "straight" men who "have a thing for" young men?

To say that eliminating homosexual men from the priesthood or the Church will solve the problems we have been facing for years on end is ridiculous. ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. Homosexual men are just as capable of dedicated spirituality as heterosexual men.

[quote name='ariaane' post='1864344' date='May 11 2009, 04:22 PM'](This is the thing [b]I hate most[/b] about the homosexual agenda: When it comes to homosexual adoption, the desires of self serving homosexuals preceeds the needs of vulnerable children)[/quote]
It sounds like you just hate gay people. Again you equate homosexuality with pedophilia. AGAIN.

[quote name='ariaane' post='1864344' date='May 11 2009, 04:22 PM']Keep in mind that there is already a shortage of priests, and altar server boys often make up males who later enter into the priesthood. If we leave them to be devoured by wolves, not only is this unfair to them as children, but [b]who will be our future priests[/b]?[/quote]
You are ridiculous. Seriously. Again with the equating homosexuality with pedophilia. To lump a whole category of people into a class and say, "They cannot be trusted," is absolutely ridiculous.

[ariaane]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1864365' date='May 11 2009, 11:41 PM']Straight men molest boys ?[/quote]

Yes.

I'd fathom a guess that most sexual abuse of post pubescent boys is committed by homosexual males, however. The same goes vice versa with post pubescent girls being molested by predominantly heterosexual men.

[b]But most of the cases in the Catholic child abuse scandal were not committed by heterosexual men.[/b]

[Guest]

I dont see how a man could be looked at as "straight" if he does a sexual act with another male. That is automaticly homosexual in my book.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1864374' date='May 11 2009, 06:55 PM']Again, you're kidding right? You again are equating homosexuality with pedophilia. This is ridiculous.



Really? Because I'm pretty sure in my area we have more FEMALE altar servers. Make an issue of that in a separate thread, though; I can only take so much ignorance at a time.



Why be ridiculous and blame a whole category of people for the downfall of our seminaries? Why not look into the single common thread in all of these men? There must be one.


Again, the ignorance is glaring. Else the bigotry is flaring. Perhaps it's both.

This is not, at least on my part, an attempt to spare the feelings of any category of people. It is me begging and pleading that we look at the trend among ALL the priests. What was going on with ALL of them that got them where they were?

I'm asking that you stop for a moment and consider that not all homosexual men are inclined to sleep with young children - even post-pubescent. I'm asking that you stop to consider that there were heterosexual men who did this as well. How do you intend on keeping children safe in the quarters of straight men who "have a thing for" young men?

To say that eliminating homosexual men from the priesthood or the Church will solve the problems we have been facing for years on end is ridiculous. ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. Homosexual men are just as capable of dedicated spirituality as heterosexual men.


It sounds like you just hate gay people. Again you equate homosexuality with pedophilia. AGAIN.


You are ridiculous. Seriously. Again with the equating homosexuality with pedophilia. To lump a whole category of people into a class and say, "They cannot be trusted," is absolutely ridiculous.[/quote]
hughley she said nothing about hating anyone, she is simply pointing out the substaniated link between the "sex abuse" scandal and homosexuality. It may not be politically corrrect but its true.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1864365' date='May 11 2009, 04:41 PM']Straight men molest boys ?[/quote]
if you give any credit to the kinsey scale, and like to apply terms, it could be argued that yes, they might. straight pedophiles might molest boys.

but i see what you're getting at. the deal is this, some homosexual men might also be pedophiles. but not all pedophiles are homosexual men.


[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1864378' date='May 11 2009, 05:00 PM']I dont see how a man could be looked at as "straight" if he does a sexual act with another male. That is automaticly homosexual in my book.[/quote]
in your book. but there's debate on this. the idea of sexuality as being more complex than "i like boobs" is something that's being talked about quite a bit.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1864383' date='May 11 2009, 05:04 PM']hughley she said nothing about hating anyone, she is simply pointing out the substaniated link between the "sex abuse" scandal and homosexuality. It may not be politically corrrect but its true.[/quote]
my name is not hughley.

[tinytherese]

There definitely is a fear of not being politically correct in regards to the gay community. Often, when people say that they are against gay marriage people are called "homophobic" for holding such a belief. Sure it doesn't happen all of the time but it does happen sometimes.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1864395' date='May 11 2009, 07:11 PM']if you give any credit to the kinsey scale, and like to apply terms, it could be argued that yes, they might. straight pedophiles might molest boys.

but i see what you're getting at. the deal is this, some homosexual men might also be pedophiles. but not all pedophiles are homosexual men.



in your book. but there's debate on this. the idea of sexuality as being more complex than "i like boobs" is something that's being talked about quite a bit.


my name is not hughley.[/quote]
I apologize for misplacing a letter in your name.

[Guest]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1864395' date='May 11 2009, 05:11 PM']if you give any credit to the kinsey scale, and like to apply terms, it could be argued that yes, they might. straight pedophiles might molest boys.

but i see what you're getting at. the deal is this, some homosexual men might also be pedophiles. but not all pedophiles are homosexual men.

[font="Arial Black"]Ok I see what you are saying.[/font]


in your book. but there's debate on this. the idea of sexuality as being more complex than "i like boobs" is something that's being talked about quite a bit.
[font="Arial Black"]
lol[/font][/quote]

Edited May 11, 2009 by Guest

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1864397' date='May 11 2009, 05:12 PM']There definitely is a fear of not being politically correct in regards to the gay community. Often, when people say that they are against gay marriage people are called "homophobic" for holding such a belief. Sure it doesn't happen all of the time but it does happen sometimes.[/quote]
not being politically correct and going to extremes with complete disregard for a person's dignity are two very different things. to assume and assert that all gay people are also pedophiles is beyond potentially being politically incorrect.

to make jokes equating homosexuality with bestiality is sick and beyond being politically incorrect.

the behavior exhibited on these boards towards homosexual persons is disgusting and, from what i can tell, completely contrary to how the Church has taught us to act. it is contrary to the compassionate teacher Christians claim to follow. it is with complete disregard to respect for human people.

this is way beyond political correctness.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Delivery Boy'][quote name='hugheyforlife']in your book. but there's debate on this. the idea of sexuality as being more complex than "i like boobs" is something that's being talked about quite a bit.[/quote]
haha[/quote]

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1864378' date='May 11 2009, 05:00 PM']I dont see how a man could be looked at as "straight" if he does a sexual act with another male. That is automaticly homosexual in my book.[/quote]

It happens all the time. Straight men rape or engage in consensual sex with other males in prisons because that's what is available. Straight men also rape other men in war zones as a way of showing dominance. Rape often has nothing to do with sex, it has to do with power and control.

[franciscanheart]

i was watching something on TLC this weekend about human sexuality. the studies that have been done are really interesting and some of the history they were showing was fascinating. homosexuality is certainly nothing new, it's just newly criticized and publicized. (i should clarify that homosexual relations are nothing new.)