Church Architecture

[AdAltareDei]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1863390' date='May 10 2009, 02:41 AM']Our Cathedral has a lot of chapels around the perimeter, too (our Cathedral is circular). But it's also the one place I can attend a Latin Novus Ordo (no TLM in our diocese), so I go there on occasion. But if all the parishes did a Latin NO, I think that would be quite nice. I would definitely like it if the TLM were available, since I've never been to it.[/quote]

I've never been to a Latin Novus Ordo.
My archdiocese is lucky. We have a personal parish run by the FSSP, a few more weekly indult TLM's scattered around and a beautiful parish run by Opus Dei which I'm told offers great Mass and preaching.

Two of my friends are also postulants at a Capuchin Friary which runs the national shrine of St. Anthony which isn't far from my house, according to my friends one of the younger priests is learning to say the TLM.

If the SSPX gets regularized soon that will be another personal parish for the Latin Mass too.

Yes, my diocese is very good in comparison to some others I suppose, I will stop bragging now >___>!

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1863397' date='May 10 2009, 07:51 AM']I've never been to a Latin Novus Ordo.[/quote]
It's very beautiful and reverent. And it has Gregorian chant.

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1860855' date='May 7 2009, 01:39 PM']I just learned a very valuable lesson... READ the thread before responding to the poll.

I voted "No" because I thought the OP was asking if Rocco was the only acceptable style. Having read the thread I should have voted "yes" because I find Rocco to be an acceptable [i]option[/i].[/quote]
I'm guilty of that as well.

[mcts]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1860307' date='May 6 2009, 11:46 PM']For those that can, yes. Even those that can't should try their best to give God the best they have. What surely must be stopped is the bare and ugly empty looking alters and churches, that look more like office buildings.[/quote]


actually, i sometimes attend a parish that is a converted office building

[url="http://image57.webshots.com/57/1/84/21/461518421aSIgUT_ph.jpg"]here's[/url] the link to the picture since i can't get it to show up on here.

i can't find a picture of the inside, but it's actually beautiful. The sanctuary area has a ton of statues and stuff and except for the low ceiling, it feels more "churchy" than other churches that i've been to that were built for the purpose of being a church. It's also one of the most orthodox parishes i've ever known of. If i lived closer (it's an hour and a half away) it would definitely be my regular parish. I love it!

edit: picture didn't show up.

Edited May 10, 2009 by mcts

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1863397' date='May 10 2009, 03:51 AM']I've never been to a Latin Novus Ordo.
My archdiocese is lucky. We have a personal parish run by the FSSP, a few more weekly indult TLM's scattered around and a beautiful parish run by Opus Dei which I'm told offers great Mass and preaching.

Two of my friends are also postulants at a Capuchin Friary which runs the national shrine of St. Anthony which isn't far from my house, according to my friends one of the younger priests is learning to say the TLM.

If the SSPX gets regularized soon that will be another personal parish for the Latin Mass too.

Yes, my diocese is very good in comparison to some others I suppose, I will stop bragging now >___>![/quote]

I find this interesting as a former Evangelical... because the objective criteria I would use to judge the quality of a diocese would be stuff like the number of catechumens and candidates entering the Church as a percentage of the diocese membership; how many of those entering the Church remain practicing Catholics 1, 3, and 5 years later; numbers discerning priesthood and religious life; married couples refraining from contraception; even fertility rates.

Now, I do believe the beautiful and reverent liturgy encouraged by the FSSP and TLM are one important ingredient that bears the kind of good fruit I'm talking about... but I would look at the fruit rather than the efforts.

[AdAltareDei]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1863622' date='May 10 2009, 02:50 PM']I find this interesting as a former Evangelical... because the objective criteria I would use to judge the quality of a diocese would be stuff like the number of catechumens and candidates entering the Church as a percentage of the diocese membership; how many of those entering the Church remain practicing Catholics 1, 3, and 5 years later; numbers discerning priesthood and religious life; married couples refraining from contraception; even fertility rates.

Now, I do believe the beautiful and reverent liturgy encouraged by the FSSP and TLM are one important ingredient that bears the kind of good fruit I'm talking about... but I would look at the fruit rather than the efforts.[/quote]

Oh, I don't know about number of converts or catholics who follow the teaching on contraception. My guess is, the second one atleast, isn't very good. But it's like that anywhere. I was talking from a liturgical point of view, considering there are some diocese's without a traditional Mass at all.

The rest of the diocese is pretty bad, the parishes I've been to have bland liturgies and the teaching focuses more on social issues than the faith. But there are a few oasis's of authentic Catholicism, which was my point.

OH WAIT, the Archdiocese of Melbourne (mine), draws the most vocations in Australia. There's around 25 seminarians for the secular priesthood, I'm sure there are a few more for religious orders too. There's been a new religious order for females and males founded recently too. I know one of the male ones has a seminary with 15 students because it's not far from my house.

[mamalove]

Just wanted to enter some shameless bragging on my diocese which has 46 seminarians

Ok, sorry to hijack the thread. Back to church architecture. . .

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1863754' date='May 10 2009, 10:17 PM']Oh, I don't know about number of converts or catholics who follow the teaching on contraception. My guess is, the second one atleast, isn't very good. But it's like that anywhere. I was talking from a liturgical point of view, considering there are some diocese's without a traditional Mass at all.[/quote]

Well, the numbers of converts can be found from the Catholic Church's annual census and I've heard some numbers on people who remain active in the Church after converting that are -- not surprisingly -- a bit disappointing (50% of converts do not attend Easter Mass a year later, but that's just one random stat and who knows who valid it might be depending on the region, etc.) You can find out what percent of the total population living in a diocese is Catholic at [url="http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dmelb.html"]Catholic-Hierarchy.org[/url] and view the trends over time, which can sometimes be telling if growth is coming from converts as opposed to immigration.

As for obedience to other teachings, that's the responsibility of bishops and priests to ensure people are at least hearing this stuff. As much as Christopher West might be controversial for some, at least he cares enough to teach JPII's theology of the body, help restore marriages, and reinvigorate the faith of lapsed or bored Catholics. Liturgy, art, and architecture also play their role. I'm just saying that we need to remember the numbers are the point: leading more people to Christ, not for the sake of boasting in ourselves, but for the sake of our communities, nations, and the world who need the Truth. It's not always the case, but in most cases, a stagnant or shrinking church community is a dying church community.

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1863754' date='May 10 2009, 10:17 PM']OH WAIT, the Archdiocese of Melbourne (mine), draws the most vocations in Australia. There's around 25 seminarians for the secular priesthood, I'm sure there are a few more for religious orders too. There's been a new religious order for females and males founded recently too. I know one of the male ones has a seminary with 15 students because it's not far from my house.[/quote]

Melbourne has just over a million Catholics... looks like they need more seminarians. By comparison, the Diocese of Covington (Kentucky) has just under 100,000 Catholics with about the same number of seminarians and Louisville is 220,000 with about half as many as Covington. Indianapolis doesn't have a shortage at all, which I hear is largely due to the Frassati Society there.

Numbers can only tell so much... have to be careful about how they are taken and looking for the underlying story. The Catholic population of most southern states in the U.S. is growing, but it's more from immigration and folks retiring to the warmer climate from more Catholic northern states than conversions. There are some conversions, but can't say I see a reason to believe they outweigh the unseen numbers who fall away.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mamalove' post='1863801' date='May 10 2009, 11:15 PM']Just wanted to enter some shameless bragging on my diocese which has 46 seminarians

Ok, sorry to hijack the thread. Back to church architecture. . .[/quote]

That's pretty good for any diocese, I imagine... which one is this?

Of course, I'm sure New York City has 50 seminarians by virtue of have millions of Catholics. I couldn't find a number, but they do have a pretty sweet vocations [url="http://www.nypriest.com/"]web site[/url]!

[AdAltareDei]

What would your plan be to re-invigorate the dying Church be, Jason?

[mamalove]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1863820' date='May 10 2009, 10:30 PM']That's pretty good for any diocese, I imagine... which one is this?

Of course, I'm sure New York City has 50 seminarians by virtue of have millions of Catholics. I couldn't find a number, but they do have a pretty sweet vocations [url="http://www.nypriest.com/"]web site[/url]![/quote]

the Diocese of Wichita, Kansas

Woot-Woot!!

[Angel*Star]

IMHO people years ago put their lives and love into their church. Their homes were humble adobes. Today, it is quite the opposite. The houses we are building are cathedrals to ourselves. They tell the world "our" status. In stark contrast, we build simple churches "because we can't afford it". Bah humbug!

Another thing here: when we belonged to a parish years ago, they gutted the church to redo the entire thing. Someone asked if we, the people, could help. The answer was simple: NO! They cited "insurance". Something tells me it was also a matter of control. Would it be "good enough"? I understand we would want an insured electrician, but we had many talented parishioners that was wasted.

[mamalove]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1863898' date='May 10 2009, 11:26 PM']IMHO people years ago put their lives and love into their church. Their homes were humble adobes. Today, it is quite the opposite. The houses we are building are cathedrals to ourselves. They tell the world "our" status. In stark contrast, we build simple churches "because we can't afford it". Bah humbug!

Another thing here: when we belonged to a parish years ago, they gutted the church to redo the entire thing. Someone asked if we, the people, could help. The answer was simple: NO! They cited "insurance". Something tells me it was also a matter of control. Would it be "good enough"? I understand we would want an insured electrician, but we had many talented parishioners that was wasted.[/quote]

Yeah, that's really sad. What happened to people? How could we go from people pouring almost everything they could give into a church, to a very small number of people actually tithing 10% in a relatively short amount of time?

And then here you have people offering their time and talent ( aren't we to follow a Stewardship way of life?) and they get turned down.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1862953' date='May 9 2009, 04:13 PM']I've been to St. Francis de Sales before when I was in St. Louis! It's so amazing!

Your Cathedral-Basilica is amazing as well![/quote]
Really!?! Wow could not have been too long time ago!!

I Love all the mosaic done!

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3575/3476672406_cfcfe7b092.jpg[/img]

[jeffpugh]

Cool thread. Poll is badly worded. Oh well. Rococo is late Baroque period and is very frilly, just as their clothing and music was. I don't think that should be the highest standard. One's preference for Rococo is personal. I think though, elegance and workmanship are key for a Church, prayer, time given... the layout of the church should do well to make the Altar and Tabernacle to be separate, like in the temple. Thus, they should really have a holy of holies, so to speak. Even a rood screen or an iconistasis Too bad there are few churches like that being built nowadays. One of the problems is funding, yes. Nobility funded some of the Baroque churches, some of the early ones too. No one cares to fund their churches anymore. Also, there are managerial problems, I think. Finally, it's the people, the architects, etc who imagine banal churches. I went to a talk by this one architect in Toronto who designed this "eco friendly" church or something like that. My Ukranian Catholic friend and I sat there agreeing with his commentary on early churches and so on, but when he started talking about his design, we were like "whaa?" Basically, it's a church that is made of concrete, has one wall with just windows, and this roof thing that pertrudes into the air at a certain angle so it blocks the sun in the summer, but lets it though in the winter. The walls inside are concrete. There is no care for separation of the altar and the people... it's really just another box building. the big thing they have is their garden out front (not really) and the underground parking. My point? It's not about people funding stuff anymore, it's people's paradigms.