LouisvilleFan Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1857842' date='May 4 2009, 07:56 PM']I hold that there are many mysteries (sacraments) in the Church, while you follow the Scholastic innovations of the late middle ages that limit their number to seven.[/quote] Don't the Eastern Churches refer to seven major sacraments along with other minor sacraments? Seems I've read that somewhere... Of course, the question I'm really getting at is, which of the minor sacraments makes your breath fresher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1858581' date='May 5 2009, 12:22 PM']Don't the Eastern Churches refer to seven major sacraments along with other minor sacraments? Seems I've read that somewhere...[/quote] No. Those that try to number them or that make a distinction between them are following a Latinized perspective that is foreign to the teaching of the Eastern Fathers. The blessing of the Waters on Theophany is just as much a mystery (i.e., a "sacrament", which by the way is a non-biblical term) as is baptism or marriage. [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1858581' date='May 5 2009, 12:22 PM']Of course, the question I'm really getting at is, which of the minor sacraments makes your breath fresher? [/quote] There are no minor "sacraments"; instead, there are simply mysteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) I will never forget when Fr. Thomas Hopko visisted Franciscan University and gave a talk about Orthodoxy, because after his presentation one of my professors approached him and started talking about how the "sacraments" are "oaths," and that God has "oathed" Himself to us in the "sacraments." Fr. Hopko responded by saying that the mysteries are not "oaths," but are a real participation in the divine life and energy, and that the word "sacrament," which came from the Roman military tradition and meant "oath" was not a biblical term. After he said that my professor looked at his watch and said, "Oh my, I am late . . . thank you but I must leave." I will never forget that brief encounter and the discussion that ensued. Edited May 5, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 Interesting... now, when one goes to the web site for the Orthodox Church in America or any number of other Orthodox web sites, or even web sites affiliated with an Ethiopian or Coptic Orthodox Church (which I find particularly interesting to read for some reason), where they talk about sacraments they primarily talk about the same seven that held in common with Catholics. Do these seven happen to be the ones that are most commonly practiced? Just curious why there isn't much information readily available about the other sacraments from Orthodox sources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1858714' date='May 5 2009, 03:20 PM']Interesting... now, when one goes to the web site for the Orthodox Church in America or any number of other Orthodox web sites, or even web sites affiliated with an Ethiopian or Coptic Orthodox Church (which I find particularly interesting to read for some reason), where they talk about sacraments they primarily talk about the same seven that held in common with Catholics. Do these seven happen to be the ones that are most commonly practiced? Just curious why there isn't much information readily available about the other sacraments from Orthodox sources?[/quote] A certain amount of Latinization took place among the Orthodox themselves following the fall of Constantinople in A.D. 1453 ([i]Greek Orthodox Theological Review[/i] has had articles on this historical problem in the past), but as [i]OrthodoxWiki[/i] points out: [quote]The more ancient and traditional practice is not to isolate these seven from the many other actions in the Church which also possess a sacramental character. Some of these sacramental activities are: [indent] * the service for the burial of the dead * the rites for a monastic profession * the blessing of waters at Epiphany * the anointing of a monarch. [/indent] These also contain a combination of outward, visible signs and inward, spiritual grace. Even the blessings of homes, fields, fruits, cars, and pets have a sacramental nature.[/quote] Ultimately, anything that involves an [i]epiklesis[/i] (i.e., a calling down of the Holy Spirit in prayer) is a holy mystery. You can also watch a video by Archbishop Lazar on the sacraments at [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZN99d60Bdg"]YouTube[/url]. Edited May 5, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1858714' date='May 5 2009, 03:20 PM']Interesting... now, when one goes to the web site for the Orthodox Church in America . . . where they talk about sacraments they primarily talk about the same seven that held in common with Catholics. Do these seven happen to be the ones that are most commonly practiced? Just curious why there isn't much information readily available about the other sacraments from Orthodox sources?[/quote] But even the OCA website adds a caveat: "Of course, the Orthodox picked up the number seven from the West at a later date, and there are many other needs addressed by Our Lord which also serve to bring us into the presence and grace and holiness of God." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 Yeah, I've read that there are other sacraments, but only the seven are explained in detail while the others are mentioned in passing. I was curious to know a little more about them... perhaps there is something akin to a missal that includes rites for those mysteries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) [i]The Great Book of Needs[/i] includes all sorts of rites for the holy mysteries. I think it is published by St. Tikhon's in four volumes. Edited May 5, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1858681' date='May 5 2009, 05:48 PM']I will never forget when Fr. Thomas Hopko visisted Franciscan University and gave a talk about Orthodoxy, because after his presentation one of my professors approached him and started talking about how the "sacraments" are "oaths," and that God has "oathed" Himself to us in the "sacraments." Fr. Hopko responded by saying that the mysteries are not "oaths," but are a real participation in the divine life and energy, and that the word "sacrament," which came from the Roman military tradition and meant "oath" was not a biblical term. After he said that my professor looked at his watch and said, "Oh my, I am late . . . thank you but I must leave." I will never forget that brief encounter and the discussion that ensued.[/quote] oh Scott... er... I mean... what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1858948' date='May 5 2009, 06:33 PM']oh Scott... er... I mean... what?[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1858948' date='May 5 2009, 08:33 PM']oh Scott... er... I mean... what?[/quote] [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1858954' date='May 5 2009, 08:41 PM'][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 A local Greek Orthodox parish has a welcome packet that lists the mysteries as being ten in number. But anyway, two questions: 1. Is the Eucharist understood to be of the same importance as the Latins emphasize? 2. It seems that there is enough disagreement between the various Eastern churches on seemingly large matters (Latinization, what does and does not qualify as a mystery, probably more that I am unaware of) that they need to call a council to stamp these things out. Why don't they? In the meantime they bear a certain resemblance to Protestant sub-denominations, which cling to an umbrella title despite differences that seem striking. 3. Is there a majority opinion among Eastern churches regarding the possibility (inevitability?) of another ecumenical / infallible council? If I were an Orthodox Christian I would feel odd about the seeming indication that God saw the need to give the Church infallible guidance for the first 700 or so years and then left us for smooth sailing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocent Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1859434' date='May 6 2009, 05:57 PM'].... they need to call a council to stamp these things out. Why don't they? ...[/quote] I'm not sure if this is what most Orthodox believe, but I've read some individual Orthodox Christians state on the internet that they haven't called a Council yet out of kindness to us Latins, since, it was said by those posters, if they called a council, they would judge it to be Ecumenical and therefore when the unification of East and West finally takes place at some point in the future, we Latins would be bound by a Council we didn't participate in. So, they further went on to say, they haven't called a Council yet because they don't want to put us in such a situation. Sorry, I don't have URL the source of the above bookmarked, but I distinctly remember reading that on some Orthodox forum sometime last month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1858774' date='May 5 2009, 06:58 PM'][i]The Great Book of Needs[/i] includes all sorts of rites for the holy mysteries. I think it is published by St. Tikhon's in four volumes.[/quote] Yikes... well, I thought there might be a good Orthodox/Eastern Catholic apologetics web site that wraps 'em up in a tidy little package Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1859434' date='May 6 2009, 07:27 AM']A local Greek Orthodox parish has a welcome packet that lists the mysteries as being ten in number. But anyway, two questions: 1. Is the Eucharist understood to be of the same importance as the Latins emphasize? 2. It seems that there is enough disagreement between the various Eastern churches on seemingly large matters (Latinization, what does and does not qualify as a mystery, probably more that I am unaware of) that they need to call a council to stamp these things out. Why don't they? In the meantime they bear a certain resemblance to Protestant sub-denominations, which cling to an umbrella title despite differences that seem striking. 3. Is there a majority opinion among Eastern churches regarding the possibility (inevitability?) of another ecumenical / infallible council? If I were an Orthodox Christian I would feel odd about the seeming indication that God saw the need to give the Church infallible guidance for the first 700 or so years and then left us for smooth sailing.[/quote] lol. Oops. Make that THREE questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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