Music At Mass

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1870059' date='May 18 2009, 01:59 AM']I'm pretty sure the Church Fathers, being "Church Fathers" are part of the Universal Magestirium. One must be careful when pointing out the fallibility of the Church Fathers because much of what they wrote is infallible.[/quote]

"Much." Not all?

----------------
Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/jay-z+%26+linkin+park/track/numb+++encore"]Jay-Z & Linkin Park - Numb / Encore[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1870439' date='May 18 2009, 03:14 PM']Just for interest sake, and 'cause it's the debate table, why does the psalms seem to inspire the use of instruments? "Praise the Lord with Lute and Harp", and so forth? Surely the ancient fathers weren't thinking the instruments were replacing the voice? I think God inspired the psalmists to write these words (and many like them) in order to teach the faithful to use their tools in praise.[/quote]

CHRYSOSTOM "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

CLEMENT "Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and intent on their idol worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wingless feasts, for they arc more suited for beasts and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men. The Spirit, to purify the divine liturgy from any such unrestrained revelry chants: 'Praise Him with sound of trumpet," for, in fact, at the sound of the trumpet the dead will rise again; praise Him with harp,' for the tongue is a harp of the Lord; 'and with the lute. praise Him.' understanding the mouth as a lute moved by the Spirit as the lute is by the plectrum; 'praise Him with timbal and choir,' that is, the Church awaiting the resurrection of the body in the flesh which is its echo; 'praise Him with strings and organ,' calling our bodies an organ and its sinews strings, for front them the body derives its Coordinated movement, and when touched by the Spirit, gives forth human sounds; 'praise Him on high-sounding cymbals,' which mean the tongue of the mouth which with the movement of the lips, produces words. Then to all mankind He calls out, 'Let every spirit praise the Lord,' because He rules over every spirit He has made. In reality, man is an instrument arc for peace, but these other things, if anyone concerns himself overmuch with them, become instruments of conflict, for inflame the passions. The Etruscans, for example, use the trumpet for war; the Arcadians, the horn; the Sicels, the flute; the Cretans, the lyre; the Lacedemonians, the pipe; the Thracians, the bugle; the Egyptians, the drum; and the Arabs, the cymbal. But as for us, we make use of one instrument alone: only the Word of peace by whom we a homage to God, no longer with ancient harp or trumpet or drum or flute which those trained for war employ." (Clement of Alexandria, 190AD The instructor, Fathers of the church, p. 130)


CLEMENT "Moreover, King David the harpist, whom we mentioned just above, urged us toward the truth and away from idols. So far was he from singing the praises of daemons that they were put to flight by him with the true music; and when Saul was Possessed, David healed him merely by playing the harp. The Lord fashioned man a beautiful, breathing instrument, after His own imaged and assuredly He Himself is an all-harmonious instrument of God, melodious and holy, the wisdom that is above this world, the heavenly Word." … "He who sprang from David and yet was before him, the Word of God, scorned those lifeless instruments of lyre and cithara. By the power of the Holy Spirit He arranged in harmonious order this great world, yes, and the little world of man too, body and soul together; and on this many-voiced instruments of the universe He makes music to God, and sings to the human instrument. "For thou art my harp and my pipe and my temple"(Clement of Alexandria, 185AD, Readings p. 62)

Edited May 18, 2009 by RezaLemmyng

[jeffpugh]

Wow, cool.

To continue throwing ideas around, wouldn't these words be conditional to region and time? Not to mention, they fail to cover bowed instruments.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1870497' date='May 18 2009, 05:46 PM']Wow, cool.

To continue throwing ideas around, wouldn't these words be conditional to region and time? Not to mention, they fail to cover bowed instruments.[/quote]


...could be... but I know that other early church fathers do mention bowed instruments...I just gotta find the quotes, it's been a while since I'd studied this.

[jeffpugh]

And for the sake of conversation, I would like to point out that the ECF could not have forseen the organ as we know it now (which came into being near the end of the Boroque period) which people thought to be very vocal at the time. (no doubt this is why the western Church has adopted this instrument, nevertheless with strict guidelines which have been ignored vastly)

[princessgianna]

Though the type of music at mass rule is seen as a "discipline rule" not dogma of the faith (e.g. dogma can't change while the "discipline rules" can change through out the centuries with different popes taking different stands.

I am trying to understand this!

Peace
Gina

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1871075' date='May 19 2009, 01:26 PM']And for the sake of conversation, I would like to point out that the ECF could not have forseen the organ as we know it now (which came into being near the end of the Boroque period) which people thought to be very vocal at the time. (no doubt this is why the western Church has adopted this instrument, nevertheless with strict guidelines which have been ignored vastly)[/quote]

This is true, there was no organ but we can go upon what St. John Chrysostom and others have said, when they made generalizations that all instruments were wrong and elevated the human voice above all.


[quote name='princessgianna' post='1872078' date='May 20 2009, 04:37 PM']Though the type of music at mass rule is seen as a "discipline rule" not dogma of the faith (e.g. dogma can't change while the "discipline rules" can change through out the centuries with different popes taking different stands.

I am trying to understand this!

Peace
Gina[/quote]

The question then becomes, why did it change and if so, was the early popes speaking infallably?

Reza

[princessgianna]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874196' date='May 23 2009, 11:56 PM']This is true, there was no organ but we can go upon what St. John Chrysostom and others have said, when they made generalizations that all instruments were wrong and elevated the human voice above all.[/quote]

The Roman Catholic Church has the final authority.
I would be willing to discuss that in another thread. That is getting off topic from the music at Mass.

[quote]The question then becomes, why did it change and if so, was the early popes speaking infallably?

Reza[/quote]

I don't remember the music at mass being a Dogma of the faith. And I am 99.999% sure that it isn't.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp[/url]
[quote]An infallible pronouncement—whether made by the pope alone or by an ecumenical council—usually is made only when some doctrine has been called into question. Most doctrines have never been doubted by the large majority of Catholics.[/quote]

I need to get off now.
Pax
Gina~

[inunionwithrome]

So what does EF and OF mean? Does it mean Extraordinary Form and Ordinary Form? Please explain!

P.S.-You should have used the opportunity while you had the Baptist choir to evangilize and convert!

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='inunionwithrome' post='1878425' date='May 30 2009, 12:01 PM']So what does EF and OF mean? Does it mean Extraordinary Form and Ordinary Form? Please explain![/quote]

[princessgianna]

[quote name='inunionwithrome' post='1878425' date='May 30 2009, 11:01 AM']So what does EF and OF mean? Does it mean Extraordinary Form and Ordinary Form? Please explain!

P.S.-You should have used the opportunity while you had the Baptist choir to evangilize and convert! [/quote]
Extraordinary Form usually is used to talk about the Latin Mass
and Ordinary -English (or of the language of the people).

[Resurrexi]

The ordinary form is often celebrated in Latin, too, as it should be

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1878818' date='May 30 2009, 11:01 PM']The ordinary form is often celebrated in Latin, too, as it should be [/quote]
I don't like the term Latin Mass. It makes people think that the only difference between the Tridentine Mass and the Novus Ordo Missae is the language. My RE teacher was surprised when I told her that the prayers are completely different and it's not just a matter of the language and position of the priest.

[princessgianna]

actually the main part of the Mass is suppose to be in Latin.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1878933' date='May 30 2009, 11:44 PM']actually the main part of the Mass is suppose to be in Latin.[/quote]

:s Really?
What's the "main part"?

I know that when the liturgical reforms began priests still recited the Roman Canon in Latin. But now there are a whole lot of new Eucharistic prayers too ):