Music At Mass

[Cam42]

A tidbit of information....orchestral Masses are allowable at both OF and EF Masses. Case in point: St. Agnes in St. Paul, MN. They have Orchestral Masses 33 Sundays a year.

There is nothing prohibiting the use of said Masses, as a matter of fact, precisely because these settings of Sacred Music are particularly apt, they should be fostered. As mentioned above, the Holy Father will be employing an orchestral setting for Pentecost.

[dairygirl4u2c]

...

Edited May 13, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[RezaMikhaeil]

I'm against it, because the Early Church Fathers mostly condemned it, and many like St. Clement of Alexandria and St. John Chyrsostom condemned the use, specifically of stringed instruments.

Their often referred to the voice as the only musical instrument that is needed, believing that the rest takes the focus off the liturgy, amongst other reasons.

Reza

[she_who_is_not]

On mass becoming a performance/show:
One year we had a lovely choir from a local Baptist college come and sing the Lacrimosa on Laetare during Communion. It was a little Rose Sunday treat. However, the choirmember's families attended and when the choir finished they all stood up and clapped. When we all remained seated prayerfully awaiting the dismissal, one of the family members huffed loudly "Hmm...I guess some people just don't have an appreciation for good music."

[princessgianna]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865753' date='May 12 2009, 10:00 PM']I'm against it, because the Early Church Fathers mostly condemned it, and many like St. Clement :unsure:of Alexandria and St. John Chyrsostom condemned the use, specifically of stringed instruments.

Their often referred to the voice as the only musical instrument that is needed, believing that the rest takes the focus off the liturgy, amongst other reasons.

Reza[/quote]
What does the CHURCH say now though! While we should read and acknowledge the ECF-they were not infallible.

Peace
Gina

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1868654' date='May 16 2009, 08:16 AM']What does the CHURCH say now though! While we should read and acknowledge the ECF-they were not infallible.

Peace
Gina[/quote]

I'm going to put it like this... the Early Church Fathers are more credible then the modern patriarchs. I'm not a progressive, I'm a conversative traditionalist. For the majority of Christianity's history, instruments were frowned upon, and particularly Early Church Fathers were in agreement upon this issue.

St. Athanasius after Nicea was known to be the most trusted individual universally in throughout Christendom. I'd say that St. John Chrysostom was also trusted to that degree.

...to say that modern patriarchs are more credible, to me...is a joke.

Reza

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1865753' date='May 12 2009, 11:00 PM']I'm against it, because the Early Church Fathers mostly condemned it, and many like St. Clement of Alexandria and St. John Chyrsostom condemned the use, specifically of stringed instruments.

Their often referred to the voice as the only musical instrument that is needed, believing that the rest takes the focus off the liturgy, amongst other reasons.

Reza[/quote]
I can agree with these sentiments. I'm leaning sort of radical myself: get back to the [i]roots [/i]of sacred music, being just vocal.

[quote name='she_who_is_not' post='1868065' date='May 15 2009, 03:36 PM']On mass becoming a performance/show:
One year we had a lovely choir from a local Baptist college come and sing the Lacrimosa on Laetare during Communion. It was a little Rose Sunday treat. However, the choirmember's families attended and when the choir finished they all stood up and clapped. When we all remained seated prayerfully awaiting the dismissal, one of the family members huffed loudly "Hmm...I guess some people just don't have an appreciation for good music."[/quote]
[ETA: forgot to comment on this] Heh, I know many parishes who would have joined in clapping. Oh well... good on your parish. Glad they understand.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1868668' date='May 16 2009, 12:00 PM']I'm going to put it like this... the Early Church Fathers are more credible then the modern patriarchs. I'm not a progressive, I'm a conversative traditionalist. For the majority of Christianity's history, instruments were frowned upon, and particularly Early Church Fathers were in agreement upon this issue.

St. Athanasius after Nicea was known to be the most trusted individual universally in throughout Christendom. I'd say that St. John Chrysostom was also trusted to that degree.

...to say that modern patriarchs are more credible, to me...is a joke.

Reza[/quote]
Indeed. Even the Church Fathers sought to preserve what was handed down. But, I have to trust our modern patriarchs, especially the Patriarch of Rome, whom I believe to have a certain primacy. Plus, Roman tradition has taken its own path. Nevertheless, I think we need to put away the musical instruments (yes, gasp, even the all holy organ that people use to qualify "liturgical" music) and return [i]a Capella[/i].We have sacred chant in the West, after all.

On another stream of thought, didn't the Temple worship include instruments? I'm not familiar with Old Testament Worship as others are.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Sacred Music Man

[princessgianna]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1868668' date='May 16 2009, 11:00 AM']I'm going to put it like this... the Early Church Fathers are more credible then the modern patriarchs. I'm not a progressive, I'm a conversative traditionalist. For the majority of Christianity's history, instruments were frowned upon, and particularly Early Church Fathers were in agreement upon this issue.

St. Athanasius after Nicea was known to be the most trusted individual universally in throughout Christendom. I'd say that St. John Chrysostom was also trusted to that degree.

...to say that modern patriarchs are more credible, to me...is a joke.

Reza[/quote]
I am not asking for modern patriarchs-however the ECF are still [b]fallible[/b]. So we should not be looking to them for answers -my point is-what does Mother Church say on the issue?

FWIW
I am an Orthodox Roman Catholic.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1869161' date='May 16 2009, 10:26 PM']I am not asking for modern patriarchs-however the ECF are still [b]fallible[/b]. So we should not be looking to them for answers -my point is-what does Mother Church say on the issue?

FWIW
I am an Orthodox Roman Catholic. [/quote]

If you suggest that the Early Church Fathers were fallible in the sense of being wrong, we can't see eye to eye on this, and I'd say that their less "wrong" then the modern patriarchs. In regards to Mother Church" if you mean the Roman CAtholic Church official position, I'm not Roman Catholic so I don't have to worry about that.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1869186' date='May 17 2009, 12:04 AM']If you suggest that the Early Church Fathers were fallible in the sense of being wrong, we can't see eye to eye on this, and I'd say that their less "wrong" then the modern patriarchs. In regards to Mother Church" if you mean the Roman CAtholic Church official position, I'm not Roman Catholic so I don't have to worry about that.[/quote]
Yes I do because they are not the official teaching authority! They are not part of the Magestirium.

What is your teaching authority?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1869215' date='May 17 2009, 02:13 AM']Yes I do because they are not the official teaching authority! They are not part of the Magestirium.

What is your teaching authority?[/quote]
What is this supposed to mean? Shouldn't there be a problem if the "new" patriarchs outright contradict with the ECF? Is there not congruency in Christ's Church?

[princessgianna]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1869392' date='May 17 2009, 12:00 PM']What is this supposed to mean? Shouldn't there be a problem if the "new" patriarchs outright contradict with the ECF? Is there not congruency in Christ's Church?[/quote]
I am just saying that the ECF were fallible men! The Church isn't!
Some ECF believed in stuff that was later called out to be heresy!

This does not mean that I agree or disagree with what people are saying! Doesn't mean that I like the "kum bay yay" junk that is sung -Doesn't mean that I don't like the gregorian chant!

I am not stating an opinion I am stating a fact!

The ECF were liable to error while the Church isn't!!

That was my only point!

Peace!

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1869215' date='May 17 2009, 02:13 AM']Yes I do because they are not the official teaching authority! They are not part of the Magestirium.

What is your teaching authority?[/quote]

I'm pretty sure the Church Fathers, being "Church Fathers" are part of the Universal Magestirium. One must be careful when pointing out the fallibility of the Church Fathers because much of what they wrote is infallible.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1870059' date='May 17 2009, 10:59 PM']I'm pretty sure the Church Fathers, being "Church Fathers" are part of the Universal Magestirium. One must be careful when pointing out the fallibility of the Church Fathers because much of what they wrote is infallible.[/quote]

I couldnt have said it better myself.

Thou I'm not posetive, I'm sure that you could even find Catholic Popes of the Past forbidding instrumentation. There are numerous references to it in the Catholic Encyclopedia, I'll try to find some quotes from Roman Catholic Popes of the Past, if I can.

[quote]CATHOLIC "Although Josephus tells of the wonderful effects produced in the Temple by the use of instruments, the first Christians were of too spiritual a fibre to substitute lifeless instruments for or to use them to accompany the human voice. Clement of Alexandria severely condemns the use of instruments even at Christian banquets. St. Chrysostum sharply contrasts the customs of the Christians when they had full freedom with those of the Jews of the Old Testament." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, pg. 648-652.)[/quote]

[jeffpugh]

Just for interest sake, and 'cause it's the debate table, why does the psalms seem to inspire the use of instruments? "Praise the Lord with Lute and Harp", and so forth? Surely the ancient fathers weren't thinking the instruments were replacing the voice? I think God inspired the psalmists to write these words (and many like them) in order to teach the faithful to use their tools in praise.