Winchester Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' post='1856193' date='May 3 2009, 12:39 AM']Of course soldiers risk their lives. And war also risks the lives of the innocent, even if unintentionally. We accept war precisely because we're not the ones risking our lives. We are willing to let other people do that.[/quote] You're only applying this to nonmilitary, then? I didn't join the military, but I do work in a job that requires me to risk my life if I'm going to do it properly. Further, it puts me in a position to risk my life in order to preserve others. I understand the soldier's perspective to that end. I am also willing to put myself between aggressors and their intended victims--aggressor armed or not. I'd prefer not to be killed by some foreign enemy, but personal fear of death not an issue. My kid not being killed, yes. With our current enemy, pacifism on our side is unworkable. You could make the same allegation with regards to cops. We do have cops because we are afraid to die (on varying levels). Getting rid of them not feasible for similar reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted May 3, 2009 Author Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1856201' date='May 3 2009, 12:47 AM']Well how would you deal with Nazism?[/quote] I would live a moral life, preach the Gospel, and organize non-violent resistance where I could. [quote]Ghandi said Jews should have allowed thmselves to be killed, are you willing to bite that bullet?[/quote] Non-violent resistance does not have to be passive. One can resist being killed, without killing. Ghandi's non-violent resistance, for example, was not passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' post='1856210' date='May 3 2009, 12:54 AM']Non-violent resistance does not have to be passive. One can resist being killed, without killing. Ghandi's non-violent resistance, for example, was not passive.[/quote] I don't want to be that skinny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' post='1856210' date='May 2 2009, 11:54 PM']I would live a moral life, preach the Gospel, and organize non-violent resistance where I could.[/quote] How? How many large scal non violent movements were operating under the Nazis? [quote]Non-violent resistance does not have to be passive. One can resist being killed, without killing. Ghandi's non-violent resistance, for example, was not passive.[/quote] Ghandi's movement did, however, kind of depend on the British not rounding up him and his followers and slaughtering them wholesale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' post='1856203' date='May 2 2009, 11:48 PM']By moral power, I am referring to standing up for what is right. Military power is its own kind of power. Whether one can can or should mix military and moral power, is not a question I am addressing in this thread.[/quote] Again the terms you are using do seem to say that war is not a moral power, and war is not standing up for what is right. This would seem to be your premise, which locks the debate. Of course if war is not a moral power, or standing up for what is right then pacifism is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1856212' date='May 3 2009, 12:55 AM']I don't want to be that skinny.[/quote] And that's why the boys don't call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted May 3, 2009 Author Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1856214' date='May 3 2009, 12:56 AM']How? How many large scal non violent movements were operating under the Nazis?[/quote] How many people were willing to organize them? [quote]Ghandi's movement did, however, kind of depend on the British not rounding up him and his followers and slaughtering them wholesale.[/quote] As I said before, what would have happened when the Nazis had killed every German? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 You're going to have to restate, then. I got that you viewed pacifism's weakness as not having enough adherents. I sort of reformulated it by explaining the obvious and there was some roughhousing that veered into moral talks. Yes, ef everyone had the ability, pacifism would win. But bad guys would kill lots of people before finally giving up. The movement would crumble before the bad guys ran into trouble killing people. And then the bad guys would only be good enough to ensure cooperation and the people, being pacifists, would have to pick their threshhold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted May 3, 2009 Author Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1856227' date='May 3 2009, 01:05 AM']Yes, ef everyone had the ability, pacifism would win. But bad guys would kill lots of people before finally giving up. The movement would crumble before the bad guys ran into trouble killing people. And then the bad guys would only be good enough to ensure cooperation and the people, being pacifists, would have to pick their threshhold.[/quote] That's why non-violent resistance has to be ingrained in a culture of peace. If non-violent resistance is just a "movement" adopted during a time of crisis, then you are right, all that has to happen is for the leaders of the movement to be crushed. But if non-violent resistance is a central part of our society, then it is something greater than just a one group movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 If you kill all the non-pacifists first, it should work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' post='1856224' date='May 3 2009, 12:04 AM']How many people were willing to organize them?[/quote] There were a lot of good people. I once talked to a Holocaust survirov. They were forced to put bullets togather. If one girl spilt even a grain of gun powder the SS took every one of the 500 girls in the assembly line out and killed them. That is what we are talking about. Start preaching the Gospel, it's a noble message, see how long it takes you, your family, and your friends to be taken away and shot or worked to death. The "They can't kill us all" mentality doesn't work when they actually are trying to kill all of you. [quote]As I said before, what would have happened when the Nazis had killed every German?[/quote] They didn't want to. Much of the German populace supported exterminating the Jews and such. Are you asking what would have happened if they killed every non Aryan and all traitors to the Reich? I guess they would have said well done to us and declaired victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1856240' date='May 3 2009, 01:10 AM']There were a lot of good people. I once talked to a Holocaust survirov. They were forced to put bullets togather. If one girl spilt even a grain of gun powder the SS took every one of the 500 girls in the assembly line out and killed them. That is what we are talking about. Start preaching the Gospel, it's a noble message, see how long it takes you, your family, and your friends to be taken away and shot or worked to death. The "They can't kill us all" mentality doesn't work when they actually are trying to kill all of you.[/quote] Jews preach the Gospel? Sorry. Had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1856244' date='May 3 2009, 01:12 AM']Jews preach the Gospel? Sorry. Had to.[/quote] Jews are tricky. Didn't you pay attanention to the Nazis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1856247' date='May 3 2009, 01:14 AM']Jews are tricky. Didn't you pay attanention to the Nazis?[/quote] [img]http://ddickerson.igc.org/protocols_english.gif[/img] Break out the snazzy armbands and thigh high gay biker boots. Edited May 3, 2009 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1856248' date='May 3 2009, 12:17 AM'][img]http://ddickerson.igc.org/protocols_english.gif[/img][/quote] The Russians published it so it must be true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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