How Many Catholics Actually Believe Like We Do?

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1855672' date='May 2 2009, 03:19 PM']In the past I've been the oddball evil "conservative" on other Catholic and Christian internet forums, but here it seems that there are other pro-life old fashioned Catholics.

We're anti-abortion, don't believe in divorce, are opposed to homosexual behavior, don't believe in birth control, have big families, wait till we get married to have sex, and don't live together outside of marriage. But what percent of the Catholic church is still like us?

Are we the minority? What percent of the Catholic church still believes the way that we do?[/quote]
The first thing to get straight here is that the Church is not a damned democracy.

The Church's teachings on matters of faith and morals are unchanging and found in the teaching of the Magisterium (the Pope and the bishops in communion with him).
If you want to know what the Church teaches on something, read the Catechism.

What percentage of people calling themselves "Catholic" on a poll (or even individual priests and bishops) think about something is irrelevant.
Church teaching is handed down from Christ through the teaching authority of the Magisterium, not determined by the latest Gallup poll.

[i]The Church[/i] is against abortion, homosexual behavior, birth control, and fornication. Any "Catholics" who believe otherwise are not thinking in line with the Church, but deviating from Church teaching, and are indeed "Catholic" in name only.

These aren't "conservative" positions, but are those which all Catholics are bound to believe, regardless of their personal politics.

Yes, there's been a lot of damage done in the Church regarding clear teaching of faith and morals, and many so-called Catholics who dissent from Catholic teachings. And things are much worse in some places than in others.
But the numbers of dissenters should be irrelevant as to what we as Catholics believe. We should be doing our best to follow the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

[thessalonian]

I've been thinking about this thread over the last few days. The question implies something we have to be careful of. Life is a journey. We grow in understanding. We grow in faith. That some are not at the same point as us does not mean that they "don't believe as us". They may be committed to the church but just not at the same point of understanding.

[Angel*Star]

[quote]BTW, Angelstar, if you're insinuating that topics like this or for that matter any issue brought up here in the Phorums is a waste of time or droll banter, please save it because you only represent a growing degenerate character within the Church. From the way you present yourself, you were just a lukewarm cradle Catholic. The fact that you still have no intuition for how high the standards can be, says a lot about how seriously you take Divine Fulfillment (in all His creation). All I can say is, I feel sorry for your children. God obviously does, no less he has blessed your daughter with keen insight. I just hope her earthly father will continue to nurture her capabilities and not succumb to plain and simple fitting in. Watch out for that good old Hegelian bubble! [/quote]


I love Phatmass because these subjects are brought up and we can learn from each other. I also appreciate finding I am not alone. I grew up a frustrated cradle Catholic because I kept thinking there had to be more about the Catholic Church. I loved reading about the saints and often wondered how their Catholic Church could be so drastically different than the one I grew up with. Also, please know I grew up before the internet and EWTN or Catholic radio.

I am THRILLED my children know these kind of things. I was FLOORED (and proud) she knew the answer. It almost angers me how much I was not taught at a younger age. My confessor gently reminds me: You know now. Be grateful for that.

[quote name='Slappo' post='1857488' date='May 4 2009, 11:45 AM']Umm... I'm almost 100% sure she was commenting on the lack of catechesis SHE received growing up... She has 8 children and pregnant with another, those aren't the signs of someone using contraception...

I think she was also kind of curious as to how many other people knew why Aquinas stopped writing. She obviously isn't disappointed in her children knowing things like that about the lives of the saints.

St. Thomas also received a vision of God where God told him that he had written well of God. He also wanted to destroy all of his works.[/quote]

Thanks! That is exactly what I was trying to say. I wanted so much more and truly want more for my children.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1858133' date='May 4 2009, 11:53 PM']I've been thinking about this thread over the last few days. The question implies something we have to be careful of. Life is a journey. We grow in understanding. We grow in faith. That some are not at the same point as us does not mean that they "don't believe as us". They may be committed to the church but just not at the same point of understanding.[/quote]

I agree with this. Not everyone has the same experience as us. We need to be careful we don't get too proud. I know people who think they know more than God Himself. It certainly detracts from wanting to become Catholic, if that is how they are. NOW, I realize that is not how all Catholics are. My confessor also reminds me to practice humility.

For the record, I hope my children never succumb to plain and simple fitting in. I want more for them than that. I want them to know the truth and be strong in their beliefs. I want them to stand strong when the enemy attacks - and he will.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Angel*Star

[havok579257]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1858049' date='May 4 2009, 09:56 PM']The first thing to get straight here is that the Church is not a damned democracy.

The Church's teachings on matters of faith and morals are unchanging and found in the teaching of the Magisterium (the Pope and the bishops in communion with him).
If you want to know what the Church teaches on something, read the Catechism.

What percentage of people calling themselves "Catholic" on a poll (or even individual priests and bishops) think about something is irrelevant.
Church teaching is handed down from Christ through the teaching authority of the Magisterium, not determined by the latest Gallup poll.

[i]The Church[/i] is against abortion, homosexual behavior, birth control, and fornication. Any "Catholics" who believe otherwise are not thinking in line with the Church, but deviating from Church teaching, and are indeed "Catholic" in name only.

These aren't "conservative" positions, but are those which all Catholics are bound to believe, regardless of their personal politics.

Yes, there's been a lot of damage done in the Church regarding clear teaching of faith and morals, and many so-called Catholics who dissent from Catholic teachings. And things are much worse in some places than in others.
But the numbers of dissenters should be irrelevant as to what we as Catholics believe. We should be doing our best to follow the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.[/quote]


Just because you think differently on issues that the church states is wrong does not make you any less of a devout catholic that someone who agrees with everything the church says. As long as you are following the churchs teachings and not trying to convert people to your way of thinking instead of the churchs, then your fine.

like i don't agree with the church's teaching about a man always having to end, we shall say the proper way, when it specifically(and only) deals with your wife already being pregnant with a child. It makes absolutly no sense other than the fact to say, a man must end a certain way no matter what. Not because the church teachs you to be open to life, since its an oxymoron, since your already open to life. no matter if your wife is pregnant and your obviously open to life since she's pregnant and its not possible to be 6 months pregnant and get pregnant during pregnancy. I think the open to life aspect should apply to absolutly every case between a couple unless they are already pregnant since it makes no sense in this case. I see it as just a general rule they have fitted to everyone in the church. Its a rule they put on all sex as a broad as can be rule. Although even though i don't agree with it, i follow the rule. Even though i think it makes no sense, i follow it. which does not make me any less of a devout catholic than someone who 100% agree's with the rule.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1858049' date='May 5 2009, 02:56 AM']The first thing to get straight here is that the Church is not a damned democracy.

The Church's teachings on matters of faith and morals are unchanging and found in the teaching of the Magisterium (the Pope and the bishops in communion with him).
If you want to know what the Church teaches on something, read the Catechism.

What percentage of people calling themselves "Catholic" on a poll (or even individual priests and bishops) think about something is irrelevant.
Church teaching is handed down from Christ through the teaching authority of the Magisterium, not determined by the latest Gallup poll.

[i]The Church[/i] is against abortion, homosexual behavior, birth control, and fornication. Any "Catholics" who believe otherwise are not thinking in line with the Church, but deviating from Church teaching, and are indeed "Catholic" in name only.

These aren't "conservative" positions, but are those which all Catholics are bound to believe, regardless of their personal politics.

Yes, there's been a lot of damage done in the Church regarding clear teaching of faith and morals, and many so-called Catholics who dissent from Catholic teachings. And things are much worse in some places than in others.
But the numbers of dissenters should be irrelevant as to what we as Catholics believe. We should be doing our best to follow the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.[/quote]
Generally agree. Though we do need to make sure there is education about these things.

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858161' date='May 5 2009, 05:47 AM']Just because you think differently on issues that the church states is wrong does not make you any less of a devout catholic that someone who agrees with everything the church says. As long as you are following the churchs teachings and not trying to convert people to your way of thinking instead of the churchs, then your fine.

like i don't agree with the church's teaching about a man always having to end, we shall say the proper way, when it specifically(and only) deals with your wife already being pregnant with a child. It makes absolutly no sense other than the fact to say, a man must end a certain way no matter what. Not because the church teachs you to be open to life, since its an oxymoron, since your already open to life. no matter if your wife is pregnant and your obviously open to life since she's pregnant and its not possible to be 6 months pregnant and get pregnant during pregnancy. I think the open to life aspect should apply to absolutly every case between a couple unless they are already pregnant since it makes no sense in this case. I see it as just a general rule they have fitted to everyone in the church. Its a rule they put on all sex as a broad as can be rule. [b]Although even though i don't agree with it, i follow the rule.[/b] Even though i think it makes no sense, i follow it. which does not make me any less of a devout catholic than someone who 100% agree's with the rule.[/quote]
I bolded the part that struck me. You are a devout Catholic because you submit to the Church, and, in doing this, believe She is right, even though you don't understand it. When I was converting, I got to a point where there were various teachings I didn't understand (still don't understand them all, of course, I'm sure), but said I would submit anyway, and learn along the way as I could. That seems to be what you're doing, as well. We should definitely follow the Church's teaching, and we should also learn the why behind them.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1858204' date='May 5 2009, 01:52 AM']Generally agree. Though we do need to make sure there is education about these things.


I bolded the part that struck me. You are a devout Catholic because you submit to the Church, and, in doing this, believe She is right, even though you don't understand it. When I was converting, I got to a point where there were various teachings I didn't understand (still don't understand them all, of course, I'm sure), but said I would submit anyway, and learn along the way as I could. That seems to be what you're doing, as well. We should definitely follow the Church's teaching, and we should also learn the why behind them.[/quote]
Amen.

One thing I learned through my recent canon law class is that there is definitely room for us to question certain teachings in our own minds, and to struggle with accepting, so long as we submit ourselves to the wisdom of the Church in our actions.

At the same time, that freedom implies a responsibility. If you're really struggling with some aspect of the faith, and don't agree with Church teaching, it is your job to pursue truth and reconcile yourself to it. We should always be working to grow in understanding of our faith, not only for our own holiness but also for that of the people we are in contact with.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1858499' date='May 5 2009, 06:08 PM']Amen.

One thing I learned through my recent canon law class is that there is definitely room for us to question certain teachings in our own minds, and to struggle with accepting, so long as we submit ourselves to the wisdom of the Church in our actions.

At the same time, that freedom implies a responsibility. If you're really struggling with some aspect of the faith, and don't agree with Church teaching, it is your job to pursue truth and reconcile yourself to it. We should always be working to grow in understanding of our faith, not only for our own holiness but also for that of the people we are in contact with.[/quote]

[Paladin D]

All I can say is, it can be very discouraging at times when I think about this subject. Sure there are 1+ billion Catholics in the world, but I would say that the majority do not fully practice the Catholic faith (at least meet the basic requirements). We all have our struggles, doubts, and weaknesses of course, but it's discouraging nonetheless when I realize that I may be one of the very, very, few out there. There are so many quote 'good' Catholics out there who serve the Church, love God, help those in need, and etc., but may disagree with some of the Church's divine teachings. I guess all I can do is pray for them, but sometimes I feel it is pointless since they have free will and God cannot force them to change.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm truely in the same category as a 'real' Catholic.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Paladin D

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1858612' date='May 5 2009, 01:20 PM']All I can say is, it can be very discouraging at times when I think about this subject. Sure there are 1+ billion Catholics in the world, but I would say that the majority do not fully practice the Catholic faith (at least meet the basic requirements). We all have our struggles, doubts, and weaknesses of course, but it's discouraging nonetheless when I realize that I may be one of the very, very, few out there. There are so many quote 'good' Catholics out there who serve the Church, love God, help those in need, and etc., but may disagree with some of the Church's divine teachings. I guess all I can do is pray for them, but sometimes I feel it is pointless since they have free will and God cannot force them to change.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm truely in the same category as a 'real' Catholic.[/quote]

I agree with you. I find it discouraging. It makes me look at the religion and wonder why it doesn't influence the members beliefs more.

I admit that I've dropped out of the Catholic church in the past because I didn't agree with beliefs of the other Catholics I knew -- or even the local Priest. I lived up in Washington state from 1975-1986. During that period of time Archbishop Hunthausen started holding "Dignity Masses" for the homosexuals. And our local priest said that homosexuals were another type of "family".

Hunthausen began holding what he called "Listening sessions" where he would listen to criticism and suggestions for change in the Catholic church. I went to one of his listening sessions that was held in a Catholic school (Perhaps in 1985?). There were a group of women who wanted to become Priests. Hunthausen listened first to the women -- who didn't say anything too wild. Then he listened to the people for and against.

The first bunch that Hunthausen listened to were upset about "alter girls", and putting the host into the hand instead of on the tongue -- which were issues that I honestly wasn't all that concerned about at the time.

The second bunch almost weren't given a chance to speak, and there were some very vocal people who didn't want them to. But to Hunthausen's credit he let them speak and the "Listening Session" ran a little overtime. They were much different than the first bunch. They said that they weren't overly concerned about the way the host was handled or whether alter girls were allowed. They said that what really concerned them was what was taught from the pulpit. And they said that there main gripe with these women who wanted to become Priests was that they were lesbians -- who had their own agenda and wanted to teach beliefs that were counter the those of the Catholic church.

I was standing at the back of the room with some of the teachers from the school and they did NOT like the last group of speakers. They wanted to teach the more "progressive" theology.

It was shortly after this that I gave in to the encouragement of a couple of friends in Seattle and joined their protestant college group. It was a huge group called "The In" held at University Prebyterian in Seattle. And I have to say that I was very impressed by what the "Christians" (Protestants) were teaching compared to the Catholics. Of course I was also impressed by how many women there were there It was a much more social atmosphere, but I felt that the morals they taught were much better too.

I've been to Catholic churches locally that had good Priests and for a while I started attending a Catholic church north of me in Oceanside called "Saint Mary Star of the Sea". Father Mike there was an outstanding Priest. He was a young Priest but he seemed to be a really positive guy and he was a strong prolifer. Of course the Masses he gave were often packed with people.

There's a Catholic school along with Saint Mary Star of the Sea and one day a homosexual couple (One of the guys dressed in drag) came into the school with a child to enroll in the school. Father Mike refused to talk with them -- but was later punished for it and transfered to the Catholic church in Bonita (I found out because my girlfriend, at that time, lived in Bonita and she told me about a new Priest that her parents really liked. She also told me the story of why he got transfered).

Now doesn't the word Magisterium mean "The teaching authority of the Catholic church"? And isn't it made up of the Bishops and led by the Pope in Rome? Are we really supposed to go along with the church when the Bishop, or archbishop, starts teaching beliefs counter to the Pope? I don't understand the argument about the Magisterium. I know that the other parishioners beliefs aren't the same as the beliefs that the Magisterium holds -- but it's some sort of a reflection of the way the Catholic church is changing, and heading, isn't it?

One of my younger brothers refuses to have anything to do with the Catholic church anymore, and he and wife have been talking about going to a local Lutheran church instead. He argues that he isn't going to support a religion that defends pedophile Priests -- and secretly sends some of them down to churches in Mexico to hush up certain situations. I believe that this is going on.

I'm troubled by this and much of what I read in the newspaper "The Wanderer" (I know.. some people view "The Wanderer" as an evil publication, but that's the sort of Catholic that I am.) I suppose the real question I have is: "Is there anything we can do to improve the Catholic church? Or am I supposed to keep quiet and support the church no matter what?"

But I do very much like the bunch of seemingly old-fashioned Catholics who have rebelliously set up these "National Catholic Singles Conferences" and now "Catholic Thrive singles conferences." These conferences seem to get many seemingly genuine conservative Catholic speakers. But maybe much of that should really be credited to Anastasia North and Dave Sloane as well as the others who've pushed to set these up? And they aren't really a reflection of the Catholic church down here in Southern California?

Edited May 6, 2009 by southern california guy

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1859146' date='May 5 2009, 10:45 PM']But I do very much like the bunch of seemingly old-fashioned Catholics who have rebelliously set up these "National Catholic Singles Conferences" and now "Catholic Thrive singles conferences." These conferences seem to get many seemingly genuine conservative Catholic speakers. But maybe much of that should really be credited to Anastasia North and Dave Sloane as well as the others who've pushed to set these up? And they aren't really a reflection of the Catholic church down here in Southern California?[/quote]

I had to laugh at the thought of the NCSC as "rebellious"!

BTW, Anastasia's last name is Northrup.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1856288' date='May 3 2009, 12:53 AM']haha, thats a little naive.
You go to the EF Mass which usually attracts serious Catholics.
Most OF Masses attract "Cultural Catholics". I'm not meaning to generalize, but surveys show that most Catholics, even those that attend Mass regularly, don't accept all the teachings of the Church.[/quote]


Personally, i find your generalization about EF and OF Mass goers to be a little naive. Are not EF Mass goers just as capable of/prone to/(fill in your verb) pride and dissent as those who prefer the ordinary prayers of the Church?

[Socrates]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1858161' date='May 4 2009, 11:47 PM']Just because you think differently on issues that the church states is wrong does not make you any less of a devout catholic that someone who agrees with everything the church says. As long as you are following the churchs teachings and not trying to convert people to your way of thinking instead of the churchs, then your fine.

like i don't agree with the church's teaching about a man always having to end, we shall say the proper way, when it specifically(and only) deals with your wife already being pregnant with a child. It makes absolutly no sense other than the fact to say, a man must end a certain way no matter what. Not because the church teachs you to be open to life, since its an oxymoron, since your already open to life. no matter if your wife is pregnant and your obviously open to life since she's pregnant and its not possible to be 6 months pregnant and get pregnant during pregnancy. I think the open to life aspect should apply to absolutly every case between a couple unless they are already pregnant since it makes no sense in this case. I see it as just a general rule they have fitted to everyone in the church. Its a rule they put on all sex as a broad as can be rule. Although even though i don't agree with it, i follow the rule. Even though i think it makes no sense, i follow it. which does not make me any less of a devout catholic than someone who 100% agree's with the rule.[/quote]
I think a distinction should be made that while we may not personally understand the reason for every moral command of the Church, we must submit ourselves humbly, rather than say the Church is wrong. As faithful Catholics, we should trust that Christ's Church is a lot smarter than any of us.
If the Church is actually wrong in her moral teachings, this means either
a) Jesus Christ (who gave the Church her teaching authority) is wrong.
or
b) The Church is not really the Church instituted by Christ, in which case she has no authority over us to begin with (of course, you can't believe this and consider yourself Catholic.)

It's not really clear what you're talking about there, but the best I can figure you're referring to either coitus interruptus or oral or anal sodomy, etc. when your wife's pregnant or otherwise can't conceive.
The Church teaches such acts are intrinsically wrong because they in themselves do not fulfill either the unitive nor procreative purpose of the marital act, but are essentially forms of masturbation.
Such things aren't wrong because of some sort of moral imperative to try to get your wife pregnant at every possible opportunity, but because the Church regards the sexual act itself as sacred, and such things abuse the sexual facility.
Look at it this way, if it's okay to commit sodomy so long as no one would otherwise be getting pregnant, then there would be nothing at all wrong with homosexual acts, as there's no chance of a man getting another man pregnant to begin with.

[Guest]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1860153' date='May 6 2009, 09:07 PM']I think a distinction should be made that while we may not personally understand the reason for every moral command of the Church, we must submit ourselves humbly, rather than say the Church is wrong. As faithful Catholics, we should trust that Christ's Church is a lot smarter than any of us.
If the Church is actually wrong in her moral teachings, this means either
a) Jesus Christ (who gave the Church her teaching authority) is wrong.
or
b) The Church is not really the Church instituted by Christ, in which case she has no authority over us to begin with (of course, you can't believe this and consider yourself Catholic.)

It's not really clear what you're talking about there, but the best I can figure you're referring to either coitus interruptus or oral or anal sodomy, etc. when your wife's pregnant or otherwise can't conceive.
The Church teaches such acts are intrinsically wrong because they in themselves do not fulfill either the unitive nor procreative purpose of the marital act, but are essentially forms of masturbation.
Such things aren't wrong because of some sort of moral imperative to try to get your wife pregnant at every possible opportunity, but because the Church regards the sexual act itself as sacred, and such things abuse the sexual facility.
Look at it this way, if it's okay to commit sodomy so long as no one would otherwise be getting pregnant, then there would be nothing at all wrong with homosexual acts, as there's no chance of a man getting another man pregnant to begin with.[/quote]

are these teachings infallible ? the ones you just desciribed ?

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1859146' date='May 5 2009, 09:45 PM']I agree with you. I find it discouraging. It makes me look at the religion and wonder why it doesn't influence the members beliefs more.

I admit that I've dropped out of the Catholic church in the past because I didn't agree with beliefs of the other Catholics I knew -- or even the local Priest. I lived up in Washington state from 1975-1986. During that period of time Archbishop Hunthausen started holding "Dignity Masses" for the homosexuals. And our local priest said that homosexuals were another type of "family".

Hunthausen began holding what he called "Listening sessions" where he would listen to criticism and suggestions for change in the Catholic church. I went to one of his listening sessions that was held in a Catholic school (Perhaps in 1985?). There were a group of women who wanted to become Priests. Hunthausen listened first to the women -- who didn't say anything too wild. Then he listened to the people for and against.

The first bunch that Hunthausen listened to were upset about "alter girls", and putting the host into the hand instead of on the tongue -- which were issues that I honestly wasn't all that concerned about at the time.

The second bunch almost weren't given a chance to speak, and there were some very vocal people who didn't want them to. But to Hunthausen's credit he let them speak and the "Listening Session" ran a little overtime. They were much different than the first bunch. They said that they weren't overly concerned about the way the host was handled or whether alter girls were allowed. They said that what really concerned them was what was taught from the pulpit. And they said that there main gripe with these women who wanted to become Priests was that they were lesbians -- who had their own agenda and wanted to teach beliefs that were counter the those of the Catholic church.

I was standing at the back of the room with some of the teachers from the school and they did NOT like the last group of speakers. They wanted to teach the more "progressive" theology.

It was shortly after this that I gave in to the encouragement of a couple of friends in Seattle and joined their protestant college group. It was a huge group called "The In" held at University Prebyterian in Seattle. And I have to say that I was very impressed by what the "Christians" (Protestants) were teaching compared to the Catholics. Of course I was also impressed by how many women there were there It was a much more social atmosphere, but I felt that the morals they taught were much better too.

I've been to Catholic churches locally that had good Priests and for a while I started attending a Catholic church north of me in Oceanside called "Saint Mary Star of the Sea". Father Mike there was an outstanding Priest. He was a young Priest but he seemed to be a really positive guy and he was a strong prolifer. Of course the Masses he gave were often packed with people.

There's a Catholic school along with Saint Mary Star of the Sea and one day a homosexual couple (One of the guys dressed in drag) came into the school with a child to enroll in the school. Father Mike refused to talk with them -- but was later punished for it and transfered to the Catholic church in Bonita (I found out because my girlfriend, at that time, lived in Bonita and she told me about a new Priest that her parents really liked. She also told me the story of why he got transfered).

Now doesn't the word Magisterium mean "The teaching authority of the Catholic church"? And isn't it made up of the Bishops and led by the Pope in Rome? Are we really supposed to go along with the church when the Bishop, or archbishop, starts teaching beliefs counter to the Pope? I don't understand the argument about the Magisterium. I know that the other parishioners beliefs aren't the same as the beliefs that the Magisterium holds -- but it's some sort of a reflection of the way the Catholic church is changing, and heading, isn't it?

One of my younger brothers refuses to have anything to do with the Catholic church anymore, and he and wife have been talking about going to a local Lutheran church instead. He argues that he isn't going to support a religion that defends pedophile Priests -- and secretly sends some of them down to churches in Mexico to hush up certain situations. I believe that this is going on.

I'm troubled by this and much of what I read in the newspaper "The Wanderer" (I know.. some people view "The Wanderer" as an evil publication, but that's the sort of Catholic that I am.) I suppose the real question I have is: "Is there anything we can do to improve the Catholic church? Or am I supposed to keep quiet and support the church no matter what?"

But I do very much like the bunch of seemingly old-fashioned Catholics who have rebelliously set up these "National Catholic Singles Conferences" and now "Catholic Thrive singles conferences." These conferences seem to get many seemingly genuine conservative Catholic speakers. But maybe much of that should really be credited to Anastasia North and Dave Sloane as well as the others who've pushed to set these up? And they aren't really a reflection of the Catholic church down here in Southern California?[/quote]
The Magisterium is the teaching authority given to the Pope and the bishops in [i]communion with him[/i] (key phrase there). Personal teaching infallibility belongs only to the Pope, so when in doubt go with Rome. Read the Catechism - it's pretty clear. Read the papal encyclicals.

Any bishops or priests who disagree with the Church's clearly stated teachings regarding homosexuality, etc. are acting against the Church.
It's a bloody shame you have to deal with those clergy - who are modern-day Judases. I hear enough horror stories about the west coast. Just remember, SoCal is not the whole Church, and things are not like that everywhere.
Our parish out here is quite orthodox and "conservative," with good solid priests, large families, and no visible homosexual movement. Realize it's not like that everywhere, but neither do the dissident liberal west-coast diocese represent the Church as a whole.
In fact it's the orthodox "conservative" Catholics that truly represent the Church and what She teaches, not the liberal dissenters who go against Rome and Catholic teaching.

In regards to your question, we are required to stand up for what the Church [i]really[/i] teaches, and to fight error and immorality when we can. Supporting the actions of dissident and immoral clergymen is [i]not[/i] truly supporting the Church. Sometimes, there's only so much we can do as laymen, and the Church often moves slower than we like, but the Pope is working to turn things around.
Just remember, whenever a priest or bishop teaches or does something [i]in direct contradiction to Church teaching[/i] he is not acting on behalf of the Church, and such actions must never be supported by the Catholic faithful, and their evil actions must not be confused with "the Church."

Look I know there's a lot of scumbag clergy in California, and that really smells of elderberries, but keep up the good fight and don't let the b*******s get you down.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1860160' date='May 6 2009, 09:13 PM']are these teachings infallible ? the ones you just desciribed ?[/quote]
Yes they are, as are all the Church's teachings regarding morals.