The Gospels

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1855750' date='May 2 2009, 04:18 PM']No joke, read The Da Vinci Code, it's all there [/quote]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1855723' date='May 2 2009, 06:45 PM']I give my religious assent to the decisions of the Biblical Commission of the Holy Office:

"Whether the opinion should be considered as sufficiently supported by the assent of tradition, which holds that Matthew preceded the other evangelists in his writing, and that he composed the first Gospel in the native language then employed by the Jews of Palestine, to whom that work was directed?--Reply: In the affirmative to both parts." (Denzinger-Schönmetzer 3562)

"Whether, with respect to the chronological order of the Gospels, it is right to withdraw from that opinion which, strengthened equally by the most ancient and continued testimony of tradition, testifies that Mark was the second in order to write and Luke the third, after Matthew, who was the first of all to write his Gospel in his native tongue; or, whether their opinion, which asserts that the Gospel was composed second and third before the Greek version of the first Gospel, is to be regarded in turn as in opposition to this idea?--Reply: In the negative to both parts." (Denzinger-Schönmetzer 3572)

Pope St. Pius X, in his motu proprio [i]Praestantia Scripturae[/i] decreed the following about the Biblical Commission:

"Therefore, we see that it must be declared and ordered as We do now declare and expressly order, that all are bound by the duty of conscience to submit to the decisions of the Biblical Pontifical Commission, both those which have thus far been published and those which will hereafter be proclaimed, just as to the decrees of the Sacred Congregations which pertain to doctrine and have been approved by the Pontiff; and that all who impugn such decisions as these by word or in writing cannot avoid the charge of disobedience, or on this account be free of grave sin; and this besides the scandal by which they offend, and the other matters for which they can be responsible before God, especially because of other pronouncements in these matters made rashly and erroneously." (Denzinger-Schönmetzer 3503)[/quote]

So the Biblical Commission says Matthew was written first? Is there a reason why it would be wrong to believe otherwise? I'm not aware that we are capable of nailing the dates down too firmly.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1855749' date='May 2 2009, 06:16 PM']Which Gospel was written first is not all that important, but what is important is that a person accept the inspired and canonical nature of the Church's fourfold Gospel tradition.[/quote]

Actually it is important. Christ gave to Peter and also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head the power to bind and loose. For this reason, we must accept the doctrinal judgments of the Magisterium.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1855760' date='May 2 2009, 04:26 PM']Actually it is important for Christ gave to Peter and also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head the power to bind and loose. "The power to 'bind and loose' connotes the authority to absolve sins, [b]to pronounce doctrinal judgements[/b], and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church." (CCC 553, emphasis added)[/quote]
Which Gospel was written first is not a dogma of the faith, and I refuse to fall line with your juridical reductionism of the faith, which turns it into statements issued in the early 20th century by a now defunct commission. The first Gospel was orally preached by Christ the Lord Himself.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1855751' date='May 2 2009, 05:18 PM'][/quote]

I remember in AP Euro the teacher showing a north european protestant wood engraving of a puritan beating himself.

some girl yelled out "oh my gosh, like in the Da Vinci Code"

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1855762' date='May 2 2009, 05:28 PM']Which Gospel was written first is not a dogma of the faith, and I refuse to fall line with your juridical reductionism of the faith, which turns it into statements issued in the early 20th century by a now defunct commission. The first Gospel was orally preached by Christ the Lord Himself.[/quote]

Yeah, what he said.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1855762' date='May 2 2009, 06:28 PM']Which Gospel was written first is not a dogma of the faith, and I refuse to fall line with your juridical reductionism of the faith, which turns it into statements issued in the early 20th century by a now defunct commission. The first Gospel was orally preached by Christ the Lord Himself.[/quote]

The decisions by the Biblical Commission were very much in line with what the Fathers wrote, would you not say? In fact, is it not true that nearly everyone in the East and in the West held the order in which the four Gospels were written to be St. Matthew, then St. Mark, then St. Luke, then St. John? It would seem that such a position would be very much in accordance with both Western and [b]Eastern tradition[/b].

Edited May 2, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1855752' date='May 2 2009, 06:18 PM']So the Biblical Commission says Matthew was written first? Is there a reason why it would be wrong to believe otherwise? I'm not aware that we are capable of nailing the dates down too firmly.[/quote]

The Pope said that "all are bound by the duty of conscience to submit to the decisions of the Biblical Pontifical Commission." No Pope or [b]Ecumenical Council[/b] ( ) has repealed these decisions, nor has the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. As I said earlier, If the Church has now decided that one is free to hold that St. Mark was written first, then one is certainly free to do so, but, as far as I am aware, the Church has not said anything of the sort.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1855777' date='May 2 2009, 04:38 PM']The decisions by the Biblical Commission were very much in line with what the Fathers wrote, would you not say? In fact, is it not true that nearly everyone in the East and in the West held the order in which the four Gospels were written to be St. Matthew, then St. Mark, then St. Luke, then St. John? It would seem that such a position would be very much in accordance with both Western and [b]Eastern tradition[/b].[/quote]
Matthew is put first because it can be divided into five discourses that symbolically correspond to the five books of Moses. That said, none of the Church Fathers ever made the order in which the Gospels may have been written a matter of dogmatic faith.

[Resurrexi]

The Fathers lived closest in time to the writers of the Gospels. Would it not then follow that they best knew the order in which the Gospels were written?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1855800' date='May 2 2009, 06:13 PM']The Fathers lived closest in time to the writers of the Gospels. Would it not then follow that they best knew the order in which the Gospels were written?[/quote]

What makes you think that they put them in chronological order? That would be the least important determining factor when discussing theology.

[Resurrexi]

In any case, Roma locuta est--causa finita est.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Resurrexi

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1855815' date='May 2 2009, 06:28 PM']In any case, Roma locuta est--causa finita est.[/quote]

Rome has not spoken infalliably about this, as you should know, mostly because it isn't that important.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1855800' date='May 2 2009, 05:13 PM']The Fathers lived closest in time to the writers of the Gospels. Would it not then follow that they best knew the order in which the Gospels were written?[/quote]
A man's salvation is not dependent upon knowing which Gospel was written first.

It is important not to confuse pious customs with dogmatic faith.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1855822' date='May 2 2009, 05:37 PM']Rome has not spoken infalliably about this, as you should know, mostly because it isn't that important.[/quote]
True, and I doubt that it ever will try to "define" this issue, because -- I agree with you -- it is not that important.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Apotheoun