Does God Still Punish Us?

[socalscout]

I need some clarification. I was listening to Relevant radio and the guest speaker was talking about God’s punishments on mankind today such as this Swine flu and others. He said that anyone who does not believe this occurs is Biblically illiterate and using relativism in their thought process.

Can someone help me on this because I have a hard time believing this? I thought the punishment for our sins fell upon Christ. He is the ultimate enduring sacrifice for our sins.

It would seem to me, if we continue to be punished directly for our sins then that lessens the significance of Christ’s suffering. It tells me that His suffering was not enough that man must endure more for their offenses. It does not fit into the big picture as I thought was Christ’s sacrifice.

Is there an official Church teaching on this? Thanks.

[Aloysius]

we're actually discussing this in the other thread called "The Chastisement Mexico City" haha

my main point is that God is not punishing any individuals through the swine flu, but that all large scale diseases that God permits to overtake society are types of chastisements of society in the sense of reminding everyone that they are mortal and will have to answer to God, and it might be sooner than they expect. I think that's how we should interpret all natural disasters and plagues... sometimes calling to mind some specific major sin of society that might coincide with them as something to examine ourselves as a society on... but it's important I think that we interpret meaning and significance in every event.

[MissyP89]

(Note: I'm devoted to the Divine Mercy, so that is obviously going to color my thought process.)

I do believe that God can give us wake up calls, but that He wouldn't do it this way. I remember that following the Flood, God promised Noah and made a covenant that He wouldn't wipe out civilization that way. I think things like swine flood fall under that covenant, and therefore wouldn't be God actively punishing us. Also, if He were, why take holy people? Why take the righteous? In my opinion it doesn't fit with the way God has revealed Himself in the context of the New Covenant of Christ. (Emphasis here of course is on the New and not the Old Covenant--God could and did use plagues and situations like this in that time.)

My grandmother was sent to the emergency room this week. She ended up being fine, but it gave [i]me[/i] a wake up call that I've not been leaning entirely on Him, and that I need to repent. Did God purposely threaten my grandmother's life? No, I don't think so. It doesn't mean that the situation can't make me aware of Him, though. Yes, God is merciful and just, but the form that justice takes was changed in Christ.

Just my $0.02.

Edited April 30, 2009 by MissyP89

[thessalonian]

I would answer but I think Heb 12 does a far better job than I can.


[1]

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

[2] looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
[3]

Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

[4] In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
[5] And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? -- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor lose courage when you are punished by him.
[6] For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."
[7] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
[8] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
[9] Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
[10] For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
[11] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
[12]

Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,

[13] and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed.
[14] Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
[15] See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled;
[16] that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
[17] For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
[18]

For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest,

[19] and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them.
[20] For they could not endure the order that was given, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned."
[21] Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I tremble with fear."
[22] But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
[23] and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[24] and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
[25]

See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.

[26] His voice then shook the earth; but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven."
[27] This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of what is shaken, as of what has been made, in order that what cannot be shaken may remain.
[28] Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe;
[29] for our God is a consuming fire.

[Adrestia]

I think it's all in each person's head. Being a Galvestonian, I'll use Ike as my example.

Some people saw Hurricane Ike as God's punishment for blah blah blah. My church actually prayed the Memorare after every Mass during hurricane season for protection from hurricanes. When Gustav hit Beaumont (last minute turn, it was headed toward us - I even evacuated for it), our pastor made sure to point out that those churches were also praying for protection. He did not want us to think that God was a genie granting our wish because we prayed the right prayer.

Some saw it is as verification of "climate change" and carbon blah blah blah.

Some saw it as bad luck. There was a cold front in Western Texas headed our way... if it arrived two days earlier the hurricane would have been redirected as destroyed somewhere else.

What separates Christians from the multitude? According to Fr. Brendan Murphy, those who are focused on the Lord see His hand at work. He was the pastor of St. Mary Cathedral Basilica and he lost everything. If I remember correctly, he had evacuated, someone else went to his residence and disposed everything; he didn't even have a chance to see if something could be salvaged. The Cathedral itself was devastated by flood mud. It sits in disrepair waiting for money. Fr. Murphy compared Hurricane Ike to Gabriel... and compared our experience with the hurricane to Mary's experience when learning she was going to carry the Christ. Can we can trust God the way that she did? Can we take this life changing experience with the grace and faith that she did? Can we weather the storm focused on God's promises to us? After Gabriel's visit our blessed mother endured so many trials and hardships... but she never viewed herself as being punished. That's what Fr. Murphy wanted us to see. The Lord is always with us.

[thessalonian]

The old testament passages about punishing nations are in effect.

Ps.59

1. [5] Thou, LORD God of hosts, art God of Israel.
Awake to punish all the nations;
spare none of those who treacherously plot evil. [Selah]

We must be careful however not to say that those who endured the punishment were the one's who deserved it Hurrican Katrina was not a consequence of the sins of those in New Orleans. If it was punishment from God it was a punishment for the whole country. That is the message in Luke 18 when Christ said do you think the 18 who died when the tower fell were worse sinners than you? He said it was just their time to go and the message was to be ready when your time comes. But yes, God does punish nations and us. He punishes us in part by how he set nature up to have consequence for sin.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1854308' date='May 1 2009, 12:16 PM']The old testament passages about punishing nations are in effect.

Ps.59

1. [5] Thou, LORD God of hosts, art God of Israel.
Awake to punish all the nations;
spare none of those who treacherously plot evil. [Selah]

We must be careful however not to say that those who endured the punishment were the one's who deserved it Hurrican Katrina was not a consequence of the sins of those in New Orleans. If it was punishment from God it was a punishment for the whole country. That is the message in Luke 18 when Christ said do you think the 18 who died when the tower fell were worse sinners than you? He said it was just their time to go and the message was to be ready when your time comes. But yes, God does punish nations and us. He punishes us in part by how he set nature up to have consequence for sin.[/quote]

What does "We must be careful however not to say that those who endured the punishment were the one's who deserved it" mean? It sounds like you're saying that God's punishments are random and capricious. I hope I misunderstand.

[dominicansoul]

Does God still Punish Us?

I don't think He would be much of a Father if He didn't.

[Slappo]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1854607' date='May 1 2009, 02:04 PM']What does "We must be careful however not to say that those who endured the punishment were the one's who deserved it" mean? It sounds like you're saying that God's punishments are random and capricious. I hope I misunderstand.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure he means that the punishment is to the nation as a whole not to the person as an individual (although there are individual punishments too IMO).

Meaning John Doe from New Orleans wasn't killed in the hurricane because he committed some heinous sin, but because he is part of the United States of America which was being punished as a whole due to the sins of the entire country. John Doe could have even been a saint who had already paid out all his temporal punishment through personal penance.

The country as a whole deserved punishment because of sins like abortion and pornography. John Doe did not necessarily partake in either of those sins even though he died in the hurricane.

In fact, in God's plan it may be better that it was some saint that died rather then the persons that deserved the punishment as the saint could offer up the suffering and death for the conversion of sinners, and then intercede for them when in heaven and bring about the conversion of those who were involved in the sins.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1855044' date='May 1 2009, 11:05 PM']I'm pretty sure he means that the punishment is to the nation as a whole not to the person as an individual (although there are individual punishments too IMO).

Meaning John Doe from New Orleans wasn't killed in the hurricane because he committed some heinous sin, but because he is part of the United States of America which was being punished as a whole due to the sins of the entire country. John Doe could have even been a saint who had already paid out all his temporal punishment through personal penance.
The country as a whole deserved punishment because of sins like abortion and pornography. John Doe did not necessarily partake in either of those sins even though he died in the hurricane.[/quote]

So... Let's assume that John Doe from New Orleans got his "skip purgatory" card and Jack Smith from New Orleans has some amount of burning to do. How does where they live have anything to do with the hurricane? If they lived in Boca Raton or Corpus Christi would Katrina have hit somewhere else?

Do hurricanes carry a message from God? Is His message a punishment? For what are we being punished? There are many theories; and all can be supported in some form or another.
[quote]"http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Hurricanes/"
The term hurricane is derived from Huracan, a god of evil recognized by the Tainos, an ancient aboriginal tribe from Central America.[/quote]

1)
It is a meteorological fact that [url="http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Hurricanes/hurricanes_3.php"]hurricanes disperse heat[/url] - so are they "punishment" for global warming?[quote]Since warm ocean waters and warm, moist air fuel storms, theory predicts that global warming should increase the number and intensity of tropical cyclones.[/quote]

2)
It is also a fact that [url="http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Hurricanes/"]the most common hurricanes follow the same path that the slave ships used during the middle passage[/url] - so are they "punishment" for the slave trade and Jim Crow laws?[quote]The last and most common mechanism that triggers the development of a cyclone is the African easterly wave, an area of disturbed weather that travels from east to west across the tropical Atlantic.
...
Most Atlantic hurricanes can be traced to easterly waves that form over Western Africa.[/quote]

3)
It's a fact that the 2004 hurricane season was ridiculously rough on Florida, but the counties that voted for Kerry were relatively spared. [img]http://www.nsf.gov/news/mmg/media/images/florida2004hurricanes_f.jpg[/img][quote]In 2004, Florida became the first state in 118 years to be hit by four major hurricanes.[/quote]If God used hurricanes as punishment, how would you explain this?

[quote name='Slappo' post='1855044' date='May 1 2009, 11:05 PM']In fact, in God's plan it may be better that it was some saint that died rather then the persons that deserved the punishment as the saint could offer up the suffering and death for the conversion of sinners, and then intercede for them when in heaven and bring about the conversion of those who were involved in the sins.[/quote]
I agree with this part.

Your earlier statement "The country as a whole deserved punishment because of sins like abortion and pornography" sounds a little too Westboro Baptist for me.

I do believe that our permissive and sinful society is being punished... but not by the weather or a flu virus.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1854607' date='May 1 2009, 06:04 PM']What does "We must be careful however not to say that those who endured the punishment were the one's who deserved it" mean? It sounds like you're saying that God's punishments are random and capricious. I hope I misunderstand.[/quote]


Not at all. I should not have used the word punishment. Rather "endured the suffering" would have been better. Suffering is biblically of value even when not as a punishment. It is clear from Heb 12 posted above that God does punish sinners. Mostly the punishment is in the way he set up nature so that when we sin, it causes difficulties for us or mental strain or physical ailment, i..e yes aids and gays.

But again suffering in faith has sanctifying value in fact. So my point as that those who suffer are not neccessarily suffering for THEIR own sins but the suffering is as judgement for a nation. The effects of all punishment are to draw men closer to God. That is something we can't measure, but certainly there was alot of charity that went on because of Katrina for instance, that caused good effects in the hearts of man. It is that way with all disasters. The point of Luke 18 is that in case a person dies in a disaster, he had better be ready to go.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1855488' date='May 2 2009, 12:39 PM']Not at all. I should not have used the word punishment. Rather "endured the suffering" would have been better. Suffering is biblically of value even when not as a punishment. It is clear from Heb 12 posted above that God does punish sinners. Mostly the punishment is in the way he set up nature so that when we sin, it causes difficulties for us or mental strain or physical ailment, i..e yes aids and gays.

But again suffering in faith has sanctifying value in fact. So my point as that those who suffer are not neccessarily suffering for THEIR own sins but the suffering is as judgement for a nation. The effects of all punishment are to draw men closer to God. That is something we can't measure, but certainly there was alot of charity that went on because of Katrina for instance, that caused good effects in the hearts of man. It is that way with all disasters. The point of Luke 18 is that in case a person dies in a disaster, he had better be ready to go.[/quote]
fair enough... but wouldn't "AIDS and promiscuous sex" be a more accurate example?

[thessalonian]

It's all an example. We don't like punishment or the thought of it but it's all meant for our good from a loving father. See heb 12 in my first post on this thread.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1855548' date='May 2 2009, 01:26 PM']It's all an example. We don't like punishment or the thought of it but it's all meant for our good from a loving father. See heb 12 in my first post on this thread.[/quote]

I disagree with the example you gave (gays vs. promiscuous sex and AIDS), but it's really not an important point. It does not mean that I don't like the thought of punishment. On the contrary, I wish more people understood how their actions affect not only themselves but those around them.

[thessalonian]

You don't think that those who get aids get it due to promiscuous sex and/or homosexuality? Really? You don't think that Aids is used BY GOD to bring about the repentence of those who engage in such activity? Really? You don't see throgh the eyes of faith and understanding then.