havok579257 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1858217' date='May 5 2009, 08:17 AM']Our God is God. What right do we have to deny Him, His right to be placed at the forefront of all things and all people[color="#000000"]?[/color] We would rather be f[i]oo[/i]l for Christ, than to claim to follow Him yet ban the Holy Host of Heaven from anywhere or anyone.[/quote] Jesus did not force people to follow him, which he easily could have. He gave the people of the world a choice. Jesus knew forcing people to do something will not really get them to believe, they need to choose that for themself. The problem of forcing every school to become a catholic school is what happens when a Muslium thinks that his religion and his God should be taught in every school and that should be the state religion? Who gets their way? Also why should people be forced to follow a religion they don't believe in? Should I be forced to become muslium because muslium's want the entire country forced to become a muslium state? The problem you get when trying to force a certain religion on the state is that all other religions will want that also and eventually your bound to have a faith war on your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1858218' date='May 5 2009, 08:25 AM']I would be against forcing parents of non-Catholics to raise their children Catholic But the ideal relationship of Church to State would be one where Catholicism would be the official state religion and where the Church would be given special privileges given to no other community, whether religious or secular. It would only make sense, then, that Catholicism would be taught in all government schools. If a parent did not want their child proselytized, then that parent would home-school their children or send them to a private school.[/quote] but what's the difference between muslium's in the middle east who believe like this? should they be able to force everyone in the middle east to have to go to muslium only school's and have muslium be the state religon? the problem with thinking anyone religion has the right to be the religion for the entire country, is everyone else thinks their religion should be the state religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1858047' date='May 4 2009, 09:55 PM']I am a devout catholic but what gives us the right to force our religion on others in a public school? Why do other religions not get to do the same thing? Your comments come off as very ignorent. public school are schools that can not and should not adheare to one specific religion, that's what religious schools are for. to force any religion on people is wrong period.[/quote] Other religions are not equal to Catholicism. That's why other religions would not get the same treatment, were society as it should be. Teaching a religion is not the same as "forcing" it on people. A great many things in school, from that perspective, are "forced" on people. Without religion properly governing the curriculum, atheism steps in and then you get children reading books about two mommies and how that's completely okay. Without the proper religion, there is no reason to avoid teaching pragmatism. Something will replace Catholicism if it isn't in the school, and that something will not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1858361' date='May 5 2009, 10:36 AM']but what's the difference between muslium's in the middle east who believe like this?[/quote] Catholicism is right. If you don't believe that, you might as well hang up the funny hat and crozier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1858360' date='May 5 2009, 10:32 AM']The problem you get when trying to force a certain religion on the state is that all other religions will want that also and eventually your bound to have a faith war on your hands.[/quote] The alternative to [i]that [/i]is a godless state that approves homosexual marriage, abortion and hedonism in general, which I see as a far worse human rights abuse than requiring some non-Catholic kids to spend a class period in study hall if they opt out of theology (or bringing in their own religious teachers, perhaps). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1858382' date='May 5 2009, 11:02 AM']Catholicism is right. If you don't believe that, you might as well hang up the funny hat and crozier.[/quote] yes, i believe that but how many musliums's when you tell them the catholic church is thr gith one and from now on will be the religion of choice in this country will either agree or go along without a fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1858381' date='May 5 2009, 11:01 AM']Other religions are not equal to Catholicism. That's why other religions would not get the same treatment, were society as it should be.Teaching a religion is not the same as "forcing" it on people. A great many things in school, from that perspective, are "forced" on people.Without religion properly governing the curriculum, atheism steps in and then you get children reading books about two mommies and how that's completely okay. Without the proper religion, there is no reason to avoid teaching pragmatism. Something will replace Catholicism if it isn't in the school, and that something will not have the guidance of the Holy Spirit.[/quote] That's not true since the country has never had catholisism as the state religion and students 50 years ago were not learning as such things as being ok. Having God be taught in school and him being a driving force in education is different than having catholisim being the state religion. Now if you were talking about christianity and the bible being centerpieces of public schools, then i can't disagree with that. Since the major majority of this country identifies themselfs as christian and with christianity you can focus on God and the bible and most people will agree on such teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1858384' date='May 5 2009, 11:09 AM']yes, i believe that but how many musliums's when you tell them the catholic church is thr gith one and from now on will be the religion of choice in this country will either agree or go along without a fight?[/quote] There would likely be a fight. There would likely be corruption and abuse of the position. There would likely be collapse of the state. Just like on an individual level--the attempt to do things right often fails, but it does not excuse one from attempting to do what is right in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1858383' date='May 5 2009, 11:05 AM']The alternative to [i]that [/i]is a godless state that approves homosexual marriage, abortion and hedonism in general, which I see as a far worse human rights abuse than requiring some non-Catholic kids to spend a class period in study hall if they opt out of theology (or bringing in their own religious teachers, perhaps).[/quote] We've never had a catholic state or public school run by catholisims and up until the last 50 or so odd years, none of these things were in the public school systems. Having a christian influence in schools is one thing, having catholisism run schools is another. I mean would you be ok with a protenstant run public school system if they ran it the same way you said? If not, then what gives us the right to force catholisims on students but protenstants can force their religon on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1858386' date='May 5 2009, 11:14 AM']That's not true since the country has never had catholisism as the state religion and students 50 years ago were not learning as such things as being ok. Having God be taught in school and him being a driving force in education is different than having catholisim being the state religion. Now if you were talking about christianity and the bible being centerpieces of public schools, then i can't disagree with that. Since the major majority of this country identifies themselfs as christian and with christianity you can focus on God and the bible and most people will agree on such teachings.[/quote] I'm not speaking about the history of the United States, although it's an excellent example of the logical conclusion of a non-Catholic state. True, Catholic states fall to corruption, but it's because of human failure, not because of logic. The majority of the country likes calling themselves Christian, perhaps, but they resemble in their beliefs Christians as much as a donkey resembles a toadstool. Christianity is more an adornment now than it has ever been in a society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1858388' date='May 5 2009, 11:15 AM']There would likely be a fight. There would likely be corruption and abuse of the position. There would likely be collapse of the state. Just like on an individual level--the attempt to do things right often fails, but it does not excuse one from attempting to do what is right in the first place.[/quote] Except our savior never once forced himself on anyone, he let them choose. So what gives us lesser people the right to force our beliefs on all of the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1858390' date='May 5 2009, 11:18 AM']I'm not speaking about the history of the United States, although it's an excellent example of the logical conclusion of a non-Catholic state. True, Catholic states fall to corruption, but it's because of human failure, not because of logic. The majority of the country likes calling themselves Christian, perhaps, but they resemble in their beliefs Christians as much as a donkey resembles a toadstool. Christianity is more an adornment now than it has ever been in a society.[/quote] Ok and that further illistrates my point. If the majority of christian's don't hold to christian beliefs, what will they do when you force catholic beliefs on them? How many american's would revolt? How many people would agree with our beliefs. There is a small minority of catholics, true catholics in this country. so what gives us the right to force our beliefs on others? did Jesus force himself on Rome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1858389' date='May 5 2009, 11:18 AM']We've never had a catholic state or public school run by catholisims and up until the last 50 or so odd years, none of these things were in the public school systems. Having a christian influence in schools is one thing, having catholisism run schools is another. I mean would you be ok with a protenstant run public school system if they ran it the same way you said? If not, then what gives us the right to force catholisims on students but protenstants can force their religon on them?[/quote] Again, you're talking about history, which has no influence on the Good, unless one is a historicist. Are you a historicist? No, I wouldn't be okay with Protestant run schools. Nothing gives me the right. We are not talking about individuals. We are talking about the church established by Christ. You are viewing this with the eyes of an egalitarian, which is to a certain extent unavoidable as our culture has permeated even our theological ideas. That's somewhat unavoidable. The Catholic Church is not equal to any other Church. She is the Bride of Christ, and as such, has authority and position granted her beyond that of any other church, all of whom(with the exception of Judaism, of which Catholicism is the fulfillment) are man made. The position of highest authority is, paradoxically, the most enslaved to service, but that's another matter and only mentioned to give the Catholic perspective of authority, which isn't something lofty so much as a burden bestowed by God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='havok579257' post='1858393' date='May 5 2009, 11:20 AM']Except our savior never once forced himself on anyone, he let them choose. So what gives us lesser people the right to force our beliefs on all of the world?[/quote] Again, not force any more than any other requirement of our current society. Incest, slavery, multiple wives, beating of wives, human equality, human rights, all these vary from religion to religion. Judeo-Christianity is already being forced on the world. At least a Catholic state would be, in its ideal, aimed in the proper direction. Government is force. You can't get away from that. No one is forcing anyone ot be Catholic, in the model we're discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1858402' date='May 5 2009, 11:29 AM']Again, not force any more than any other requirement of our current society. Incest, slavery, multiple wives, beating of wives, human equality, human rights, all these vary from religion to religion. Judeo-Christianity is already being forced on the world. At least a Catholic state would be, in its ideal, aimed in the proper direction. Government is force. You can't get away from that. No one is forcing anyone ot be Catholic, in the model we're discussing.[/quote] How is making public schools become all catholic schools not forcing catholisims on the kids public schools are in place for the general public who can not afford thousands of dollars for a private school. By making public schools all one religion is forcing your beliefs on the public school kids. most people in this country can not afford private schools, so forcing the public school system to become catholic is forcing catholisism on the public. still again i ask, if the majority of american is not catholic, what gives us the right to overule the majority and impose our beliefs on others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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