Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1854021' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:20 PM']Another book I own and and have read in parts...[/quote] Evidently you didn't read the opening parts, because what I am talking about is covered in the very beginning of the treatise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I do vaguely remember reading something similar to what you are talking about, but it has been at least a year and a half since I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 It is in the first couple of pages of the treatise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Perhaps I'll take a look this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2802.htm"][u]On the Incarnation of the Word[/u][/url] by St. Athanasios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 As I said, I already have a paper copy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Reading St. Athanasios is a joy. His writings (along with those of several other Fathers) helped me to leave scholasticism behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I love scholasticism and never intend to leave it behind. In fact, I think scholasticism is most patristic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1854051' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:39 PM']In fact, I think scholasticism is most patristic.[/quote] Then you do not understand scholasticism, which uses dialectical reasoning -- something that the Fathers never did -- in order to speculate about doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 The Fathers used the ideas of pagan philosophers just as much as the schoolmen did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853967' date='May 1 2009, 12:36 AM']Death is natural, and the only thing that stays death is God's energy. Man was created mortal, but with the potential for ever-lasting life.[/quote] Death is a [i]result[/i] of Original Sin. It is not a natural part of humanity. Gen 3:22 (NAB) Then the LORD God said: "See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever." CCC 602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers. . . with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake." [b]Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.[/b] By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." [u]Most notably,[/u] CCC 400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay". Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground", for out of it he was taken. [b][i]Death makes its entrance into human history.[/i][/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Adam was created mortal, but with the potentiality for being immortal and for passing immortality on to his descendants. He failed, and corruption and death became the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I think the line of reasoning would go that death makes its entrance into human history by original sin because were it not for original sin, man would have remained immortal by God's power even though not by his nature. ergo, death would be a natural thing in the sense that we are by nature mortal with an immortality which is contingent upon God's continued graces... so death actually enters when the immortality caused by God's graces is removed by the act of sin. it's not the way I ever looked at it but I think that's the direction a position that "death is natural" would take there. it's interesting to get this from an Eastern view because there is certainly a crisis of the traditional simplistic understanding of death and original sin theology when one views a fossil record proving that death occurred prior to mankind's existence, because the traditional formulation said that not just death in the human sense, but death for all creatures was originally brought about by human sin. that's the issue I was trying to deal with before when we were talking about whether natural disasters and plagues would've existed prior to humanity and humanity's first sin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) Are you certain that the traditional understanding was that death for all creatures was brought about by Original Sin? If you think about it, according to the Genesis narrative, the animals were created for man to feed on. You can't really eat living animals. Edited May 1, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 "For transgression of the commandment was turning them back to their natural state, so that just as they have had their being out of nothing, so also, as might be expected, they might look for corruption into nothing in the course of time. For if, out of a former normal state of non-existence, they were called into being by the Presence and loving-kindness of the Word, it followed naturally that when men were bereft of the knowledge of God and were turned back to what was not (for what is evil is not, but what is good is), they should, since they derive their being from God who is, be everlastingly bereft even of being; in other words, that they should be disintegrated and abide in death and corruption. [b]For man is by nature mortal, inasmuch as he is made out of what is not; but by reason of his likeness to Him that is (and if he still preserved this likeness by keeping Him in his knowledge) he would stay his natural corruption, and remain incorrupt[/b]; as Wisdom Wisdom 6:18 says:'The taking heed to His laws is the assurance of immortality;' but being incorrupt, he would live henceforth as God, to which I suppose the divine Scripture refers, when it says: 'I have said you are gods, and you are all sons of the most Highest; but you die like men, and fall as one of the princes.'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.3578d4578768b8f5be5d7af6172f9b23.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now