Hassan Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 well let me hold on and ask a question. What do you believe scientific activity (in the modern sense) is doing/describing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853536' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:21 PM']I have said nothing that is internally inconsistent. Rather, I have simply stated the Christian doctrine of creation [i]ex nihilo[/i], i.e., the doctrine that God did not created the world from pre-existing matter. That something is contingent simply means that it cannot account for its own existence, and that it can exist or not exist, i.e., that it is dependent upon an existential efficient cause, and because it can exist or not exist it contains within itself a principle of corruption or death -- in the case of contingent living beings.[/quote] Did you nat make a special qualification for human being? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1853539' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:23 PM']Did you nat make a special qualification for human being?[/quote] No, because human beings at the level of nature are subject to death like all other contingent beings. Death is natural, but God created man with a supernatural end in mind. In Eastern theology man is not created in what the Scholastics called "original justice." In fact, man was not created "just" at all; instead, he was created innocent, but with the potential to become just. Justice -- like all virtues -- requires the activity of the will in choosing to freely live in a just manner. That said, man was created mortal, but with the potential to move beyond mortality by likening himself unto God, and this is what the Church Fathers referred to as the process of [i]theosis[/i]. Sadly, the first man failed to do what he was supposed to do, and that is why death and corruption advanced, so that God's creation itself was in danger of falling back into non-existence. Ultimately, the incarnation is about giving ever-being to creation (and man in particular) by recapitulating all things in the Logos, which is the cause of creation in the first place. Edited April 30, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1853483' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:57 PM']So if bad weather is an act of God against humanity for our sinfulness, then what is good weather? God congratulating us?[/quote] A blessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 on the original topic, I recommend the reading of the 12th chapter of the Letter to the Hebrews... thessalonian posted it on the thread "Does God Still Punish Us?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853547' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:29 PM']No, because human beings at the level of nature are subject to death like all other contingent beings. Death is natural, but God created man with a supernatural end in mind.[/quote] How is death natural? Death is the result of the first sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 and yet, prior to the first sin, there was death, it's in the fossil record. I think that's why Apo called it natural, he may have been talking about the deaths of beasts and such prior to the existence of man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1853769' date='Apr 30 2009, 08:49 PM']and yet, prior to the first sin, there was death, it's in the fossil record. I think that's why Apo called it natural, he may have been talking about the deaths of beasts and such prior to the existence of man.[/quote] He was referring to mankind and death, not animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 that's not how I read it. the traditions of the Church indicate death for all of creation enters the world through man's sin. that's part of the issue involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Death is natural, and the only thing that stays death is God's energy. Man was created mortal, but with the potential for ever-lasting life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 All men are immortal, and the bodies of all the dead will rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1853979' date='Apr 30 2009, 10:47 PM']All men are immortal, and the bodies of all the dead will rise.[/quote] As St. Maximos the Confessor taught . . . all men are immortal only because of the incarnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 The souls of those who died before the Incarnation did not cease to exist at their deaths to be brought once again into existence when the Theotokos said, "Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I never said that they did cease to exist. You should read St. Athanasios' "On the Incarnation of the Word" sometime, because then you might understand what I am talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Another book I own and and have read in parts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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