The Chastisement Mexico City

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853465' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:52 PM']By "know" (i.e., "knowledge") I mean [i]experience[/i]. Abstract knowledge cannot transcend the gap between the created and the uncreated, which means that it has a very limited value.[/quote]

I'm willing to listen.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853468' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:53 PM']the fossil record is clear and unavoidable. creatures died before humanity existed.

even a ridiculous theory (like one I once proposed here on phatmass in my earlier days of just exploring possibilities) which said that Adam and Eve lived for thousands if not millions of years during the times of dinosaurs and what not in the garden of Eden before they fell, would not account for the fact that we had dinosaurs living and dying before Adam and Eve fell from grace.[/quote]
In Eastern theology the fossil record is not a problem, because it is the creation of man that is the crowning achievement of God.

In other words, death could have occurred for ages upon ages of time and it would be irrelevant theologically. In fact, because God created everything from nothing, it follows that all created things are contingent (i.e., can exist or can not exist). Consequently, all created things naturally move toward non-being, but God -- upon creating man -- introduces a being into the world that has the potential for never-ending existence, and He introduced the first man (i.e., Adam) into creation so that he could consecrate the cosmos to the Holy Trinity. Thus, man -- as the priest of creation -- was supposed to bring ever-being to everything, but the first Adam failed to do what he was supposed to do, and as a consequence all of creation began moving inexorably toward non-existence. It is of course because of the first man's failure to act in conformity with the divine energies given to him that the second Man came into the world, i.e., the incarnate Logos, so that He could recapitulate all things in Himself and bring ever-being to the created universe.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853377' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:08 PM']I think it is important to frame all natural disasters, widespread diseases, and plagues as God's chastisement without prejudice to whether or not it's God's active or passive will that it be released. I would be much less willing to frame things directly effected by human actions like terrorism and atomic weapons in the same way, however.

there's a reason natural disasters are called "acts of God". it's not an act of man, it's an act of God when nature acts against human society. we should understand what that means and its larger significance, not write it off as if there is random chaos governing the events of this world. providence and Divine will govern all the events of nature, not chaos.[/quote]

So if bad weather is an act of God against humanity for our sinfulness, then what is good weather? God congratulating us?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853479' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:56 PM']In Eastern theology the fossil record is not a problem, because it is the creation of man that is the crowning achievement of God.[/quote]

The fossil record, and an abundance of other biological data, suggust man was not created.

[quote]In other words, death could have occurred for ages upon ages of time and it would be irrelevant theologically. In fact, because God created everything from nothing, it follows that all created things are contingent (i.e., can exist or can not exist). Consequently, all created things naturally move toward non-being, but God -- upon creating man -- introduces a being into the world that has the potential for never-ending existence[/quote]

Wait.
-God created everything from nothing
---->consequently allcreated things are contingent
--------->All created things move toward non being

Well again, modern physics is predicated on the idea that things do not move toward non being. Matter is energy and energy can neither be created nor destroyed as far as I know.

Now
-God created man (redundant as you implicitly make this claim before in that God created everything)
--->By creating man God introduces a being into the world with the potential for never eding existence.

Perhapse you didn't say that how you intended but I think I am seeing some internal consistency problems here.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1853483' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:57 PM']So if bad weather is an act of God against humanity for our sinfulness, then what is good weather? God congratulating us?[/quote]

Perhapse it's just climate activity.

This is the rational conclusion according to the great thinkers of your own Church (though I doubt he would appreciate this conclusion).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1853497' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:06 PM']The fossil record, and an abundance of other biological data, suggust man was not created.



Wait.
-God created everything from nothing
---->consequently allcreated things are contingent
--------->All created things move toward non being

Well again, modern physics is predicated on the idea that things do not move toward non being. Matter is energy and energy can neither be created nor destroyed as far as I know.

Now
-God created man (redundant as you implicitly make this claim before in that God created everything)
--->By creating man God introduces a being into the world with the potential for never eding existence.

Perhapse you didn't say that how you intended but I think I am seeing some internal consistency problems here.[/quote]
Modern physics is limited to the order in which it exists.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1852686' date='Apr 29 2009, 09:20 PM']I hope you get it and then we can shun you for being a filthy sinner who is being chastised by God.[/quote]

well, we dont' shun you, so why would we shun him?

I would mos def NOT shun you, KofC!

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853502' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:07 PM']Modern physics is limited to the order in which it exists.[/quote]

That is correct. I think before I said it but perhapse I am wrong. You may be correct, you just need to reject most of modern science to be correct. If your willing to bite that bullet then I have not problem with your claim, aside from asking what actual evidence do you have for supposing it is true.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1853497' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:06 PM']Now
-God created man (redundant as you implicitly make this claim before in that God created everything)
--->By creating man God introduces a being into the world with the potential for never eding existence.[/quote]
Not redundant at all; it is just a restatement with a focus on a particular act.

Physics cannot transcend the diastemic gap, and is limited to simply attempting to explain things as they are perceived at a given moment. Like all of science it is limited.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1853483' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:57 PM']So if bad weather is an act of God against humanity for our sinfulness, then what is good weather? God congratulating us?[/quote]

good weather is a blessing . these things are meant for believers, of course, because believers ought to interpret significance into absolutely everything. good weather is a blessing from God, bad weather is a chastisement for God (not necessarily for anything specific, but it can be; all disasters and plagues are, in general, a result of sin and their existence reminds all of us of our mortality and the fact that nature could nip us at any moment so we'd better repent... if God allows the swine flu to become an epidemic, the meaning we should interpret is: any one can get swine flu and die tomorrow; are you ready to meet your maker?)

the rain falls on the just and unjust; a chastisement for one nation and good weather for another doesn't mean God favors one nation over another; it just means one nation has been given an opportunity to contemplate their need for repentance whereas the other has been given the opportunity to contemplate God's blessings on them. like if one child gets a cookie and another gets sent to timeout, that doesn't mean the child with the cookie isn't also in need of time-out...it's just not his time for it.

I said earlier in the thread that chastisements are a type of blessing in and of themselves. I stand by that. it is a blessing to be chastised by God as a whole people, to realize He is saying to us all that we may have to come to see Him at any point.

it's like a teacher who gives an assignment saying "everyone must be ready to give this presentation by this date, but we'll be doing those presentations sometime in the few week span starting on this date". the teacher is justified in calling out anyone on the due date, and they can't exactly say "well, I'm not gonna be ready until a later date in the range you gave us in which we'd be presenting"... so God is reminding us, we're all supposed to be ready at any moment because we could all go at any moment. that's what a chastisement is, that's why we interpret such significance into natural disasters and plagues traditionally... we make all events into a prayer to God.

Apo, the Eastern formulation you express resonates well with the longer explanations I was blabbing on about

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853513' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:10 PM']Not redundant at all; it is just a restatement with a focus on a particular act.

Physics cannot transcend the diastemic gap, and is limited to simply attempting to explain things as they are perceived at a given moment. Like all of science it is limited.[/quote]

Physics has nothing to do with my claim your argument may be internally inconsistent. As I read it, you claim a logically necessary relationship between God creating 'x' and 'x' being contingent, then assert that God made a being which has the potential to not be contingent

Edited April 30, 2009 by Hassan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1853510' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:09 PM']That is correct. I think before I said it but perhapse I am wrong. You may be correct, you just need to reject most of modern science to be correct. If your willing to bite that bullet then I have not problem with your claim, aside from asking what actual evidence do you have for supposing it is true.[/quote]
I do not have to reject anything; instead, I simply have keep the proper ordering of things in mind. Physics deals only with human perception of the created physical world.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853524' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:15 PM']I do not have to reject anything; instead, I simply have keep the proper ordering of things in mind. Physics deals only with human perception of the created physical world.[/quote]

Yes, that is obviously correct. I should not have said that.

[Aloysius]

life operates contrary to the second law of thermodynamics (if one were to apply it as a general philosophical principal over all things, like you are here doing by responding to the proposition that things move towards non-being with the idea from physics that they do not), life does move towards non-being. at least, the lives of beasts... man's life was meant to be unending, and he was meant to bring to the whole world that incorruptible nature. his fall made that impossible, death in the truer sense of the world... death that had meaning and sting... that's what entered the world at man's sin.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1853519' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:13 PM']Physics has nothing to do with my claim your argument may be internally inconsistent. As I read it, you claim a logically necessary relationship between God creating 'x' and 'x' being contingent, then assert that God made a being which has the potential to not be contingent[/quote]
I have said nothing that is internally inconsistent. Rather, I have simply stated the Christian doctrine of creation [i]ex nihilo[/i], i.e., the doctrine that God did not created the world from pre-existing matter. That something is contingent simply means that it cannot account for its own existence, and that it can exist or not exist, i.e., that it is dependent upon an existential efficient cause, and because it can exist or not exist it contains within itself a principle of corruption or death -- in the case of contingent living beings.