The Chastisement Mexico City

[Apotheoun]

In the writings of the Eastern Church Fathers death, disease, and the corruption affecting the cosmic order, are not seen as a punishment inflicted upon man by God; instead, they are seen as a consequence of man's own voluntary withdrawal from the power of God's uncreated energies, which both sustain and perfect creation.

In other words, it is man who, in cooperation with the devil, brings about the disordered desires that wound human nature, along with all the various physical and spiritual diseases that afflict mankind. In fact, it is man who brings about his own death, both the death of the body and of the soul; while it is the eternal Logos who comes in the flesh in order to heal and restore what man and the devil have damaged (cf. John 1:14).

Thus, it is not God who inflicts suffering upon man; instead, it is man who inflicts suffering upon himself, and he has done this through his rejection of the gift of the divine life given to him at the time of his creation in the Garden of Eden, and he perpetuates it through his own malice and selfishness. God is not the cause of death; instead, He is the Great Physician, for it is He who heals, restores, and perfects man, by giving him once again a share in the divine nature (cf. 2nd Peter 1:4).

[Aloysius]

I think it is important to frame all natural disasters, widespread diseases, and plagues as God's chastisement without prejudice to whether or not it's God's active or passive will that it be released. I would be much less willing to frame things directly effected by human actions like terrorism and atomic weapons in the same way, however.

there's a reason natural disasters are called "acts of God". it's not an act of man, it's an act of God when nature acts against human society. we should understand what that means and its larger significance, not write it off as if there is random chaos governing the events of this world. providence and Divine will govern all the events of nature, not chaos.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853376' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:08 PM']In the writings of the Eastern Church Fathers death, disease, and the corruption affecting the cosmic order, are not seen as a punishment inflicted upon man by God; instead, they are seen as a consequence of man's own voluntary withdrawal from the power of God's uncreated energies, which both sustain and perfect creation.

In other words, it is man who, in cooperation with the devil, brings about the disordered desires that wound human nature, along with all the various physical and spiritual diseases that afflict mankind. In fact, it is man who brings about his own death, both the death of the body and of the soul; while it is the eternal Logos who comes in the flesh in order to heal and restore what man and the devil have damaged (cf. John 1:14).

Thus, it is not God who inflicts suffering upon man; instead, it is man who inflicts suffering upon himself, and he has done this through his rejection of the gift of the divine life given to him at the time of his creation in the Garden of Eden, and he perpetuates it through his own malice and selfishness. God is not the cause of death; instead, He is the Great Physician, for it is He who heals, restores, and perfects man, by giving him once again a share in the divine nature (cf. 2nd Peter 1:4).[/quote]
I would affirm that man brings about his own death and the natural disasters of the world because of how his sin stagnates the true purpose of nature, but I don't think that denies the possibility of attributing divine chastisement to natural disasters and plagues and such. chastisement is a type of purification, and it is my opinion that physical diseases and death itself act as a type of chastisement; and, all things having their ultimate origin in God, their cause being sin only all the more solidifies the idea of God using them as a chastisement.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853377' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:08 PM']I think it is important to frame all natural disasters, widespread diseases, and plagues as God's chastisement without prejudice to whether or not it's God's active or passive will that it be released. I would be much less willing to frame things directly effected by human actions like terrorism and atomic weapons in the same way, however.

there's a reason natural disasters are called "acts of God". it's not an act of man, it's an act of God when nature acts against human society. we should understand what that means and its larger significance, not write it off as if there is random chaos governing the events of this world. providence and Divine will govern all the events of nature, not chaos.[/quote]


That's a good point that natural disasters are called "acts of God," I hadn't thought of that. I just can't wrap my mind around a God who chastises nations (even for something horrible like abortion) with swine flu or hurricanes or earthquakes. Although I understand this is in His power to do and He did similar things in the Old Testament. It makes Him seem at the worst cruel, or at best indifferent, like a torturerer... "I'm going to inflict horrific pain, you're going to suffer, until I get what I want from you..." to me that would be a God worth hating!

Edited April 30, 2009 by Maggie

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853377' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:08 PM']there's a reason natural disasters are called "acts of God". it's not an act of man, it's an act of God when nature acts against human society.[/quote]

Wouldn't the same be true of disease? Do you believe cancer to be an act of God?

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853376' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:08 PM']In the writings of the Eastern Church Fathers death, disease, and the corruption affecting the cosmic order, are not seen as a punishment inflicted upon man by God; instead, they are seen as a consequence of man's own voluntary withdrawal from the power of God's uncreated energies, which both sustain and perfect creation.

In other words, it is man who, in cooperation with the devil, brings about the disordered desires that wound human nature, along with all the various physical and spiritual diseases that afflict mankind. In fact, it is man who brings about his own death, both the death of the body and of the soul; while it is the eternal Logos who comes in the flesh in order to heal and restore what man and the devil have damaged (cf. John 1:14).

Thus, it is not God who inflicts suffering upon man; instead, it is man who inflicts suffering upon himself, and he has done this through his rejection of the gift of the divine life given to him at the time of his creation in the Garden of Eden, and he perpetuates it through his own malice and selfishness. God is not the cause of death; instead, He is the Great Physician, for it is He who heals, restores, and perfects man, by giving him once again a share in the divine nature (cf. 2nd Peter 1:4).[/quote]

I am in complete agreement.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853386' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:16 PM']I would affirm that man brings about his own death and the natural disasters of the world because of how his sin stagnates the true purpose of nature.[/quote]
Agreed, for as the book of Wisdom says: "God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living." (Wisdom 1:13)



[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853386' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:16 PM']. . . but I don't think that denies the possibility of attributing divine chastisement to natural disasters and plagues and such.[/quote]
Since I see man as the cause of the corruption of nature; it follows that I see mankind's own activities as the cause of disasters and plagues.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853386' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:16 PM']. . . chastisement is a type of purification, and it is my opinion that physical diseases and death itself act as a type of chastisement[/quote]
Certainly, suffering can bring purification to a man, but I do not believe that God sits in heaven thinking about ways to punish and abuse humanity.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853386' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:16 PM']. . . and, all things having their ultimate origin in God, their cause being sin only all the more solidifies the idea of God using them as a chastisement.[/quote]
Sin and evil are not things, nor is disease a thing, nor are natural disasters things; instead, they are all corruptions and negations of the good things that God created.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853410' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:27 PM']Since I see man as the cause of the corruption of nature; it follows that I see mankind's own activities as the cause of disasters and plagues.[/quote]


Except man isin't the cause of disasters and plagues is he? In fact we know to a very high degree of certianity that both plagues and disasters exist prior to "man". The idea that suffering and imperfection were caused on this earth by man's rebellion against God's will is, from the pov of scientific evidence , totally false.

[Aloysius]

I do not see it as a way God abuses humanity in some active way, he permits these evils as types of chastisements... he created nature in such a way that human sin does cause plagues and natural disasters, and in so creating nature he built in His chastisements. thessalonian pointed to the Letter to the Hebrews, chapter 12, in the other thread which is a very poignant way of saying "yes, God does chastise us the way any father chastises his children". now, I think Paul may have been specifically referring to chastisement in the form of persecutions, but I think all ill effects that come about by nature as a result of sin is a way in which God chastises and purifies.

[quote][6] For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." [7] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? [8] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. [9] Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? [10] For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. [11] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.[/quote]

it's not God as torturer of individuals, it's God as purifier of nations. all must eventually go to Him, and all must by nature go through some suffering before reaching Him (whether it be here on earth or afterward in purgatory), so in the Divine accounting of things, it's not really anything additional for any one person who feels the suffering, and the effect on the whole of humanity is to remind them of their mortality and call them to repentance because any one of them could be the next to go.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1853420' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:34 PM']Except man isin't the cause of disasters and plagues is he? In fact we know to a very high degree of certianity that both plagues and disasters exist prior to "man". The idea that suffering and imperfection were caused on this earth by man's rebellion against God's will is, from the pov of scientific evidence , totally false.[/quote]
Do we know this? Theories are not knowledge.

In the teaching of the Eastern Fathers death itself (and all forms are corruption) are a consequence of the ancestral sin.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1853420' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:34 PM']Except man isin't the cause of disasters and plagues is he? In fact we know to a very high degree of certianity that both plagues and disasters exist prior to "man". The idea that suffering and imperfection were caused on this earth by man's rebellion against God's will is, from the pov of scientific evidence , totally false.[/quote]
but it isn't a scientific inquiry but a philosophical one. the Christian POV says that were it not for man's sin, nature would exist in a type of perfect harmony with human nature and all things could be eternal and perfect as God intended them to be. now, before mankind existed there were creatures dying and natural disasters occurring left and right, but it is man's existence and ability to interpret these things which gives them meaning. a hurricane affecting the dinosaurs had no meaning, but a hurricane affecting New Orleans has tremendous meaning. and it is the fact that the natural disaster has meaning and causes HUMAN suffering, which is the type of suffering that truly matters because it's contemplated and meaningful suffering, which is caused by human sin. humanity and all of nature is meant to exist in paradise and harmony; not that before mankind was created it was (for the fossil record indicates otherwise), but that God intends it to be that way and will recreate the world in incorruptible matter at the culmination of all things. it is human sin which keeps all of nature from existing in perfect incorruptible nature, it is human nature which causes there to be meaningful disasters, meaningful suffering, meaningful disease, and meaningful death.

the death of a dinosaur is relatively meaningless when compared to the death of a human because human beings contemplate things and because of that cause great meaning to exist in the world.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853431' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:40 PM']Do we know this? Theories are not knowledge.

In the teaching of the Eastern Fathers death itself (and all forms are corruption) are a consequence of the ancestral sin.[/quote]
but dinosaurs definitely died before the first humans. at the very least, sea animals died and bacteria died... there were types of physical death in existence before the first human beings. it would take leaps and bounds and backflips of illogical squirming to try to say otherwise (that's where "the devil planted dinosaur bones to confuse and trouble Christians").

there is a way of understanding how human sin introduces death into the world in a non-temporal way (because temporally, there was death of creatures before humans existed) the way Elijah rode up to heaven before Christ in a non-temporal way and the way Mary was redeemed (at the moment of her conception, but let's not argue too many East/West points here) by Christ before Christ actually did the redeeming act. there is also a way in which we understand that the existence of humans who have eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil causes [i]meaningful[/i] death to enter the world. I think both branches are the best route for understanding the traditional understanding of how death enters the world by sin...

in one sense, the first two humans, whenever they make an appearance on the stage of earth, cause the existence of death itself both forwards and backwards in time because of their disobedience.

in another sense, the first two humans, coming onto the stage of earth which has already seen much death, cause by their sinful actions truly meaningful death and truly meaningful natural disasters and truly meaningful diseases... because were it not for that sin humans would be incorruptible and natural disasters would therefore have nothing of the level of crisis that they cause for us as humans contemplating their meaning.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1853431' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:40 PM']Do we know this? Theories are not knowledge.

In the teaching of the Eastern Fathers death itself (and all forms are corruption) are a consequence of the ancestral sin.[/quote]


Depends on what you mean by "know".

We can reject it as an intelectually viable option to a very high degree of certainity, but we cannot claim to know with absolute certainity that it is false though.


How about this. If the current scientific data is even remotely correct then the claim is false. Perhapse it is.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1853455' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:49 PM']Depends on what you mean by "know".[/quote]
By "know" (i.e., "knowledge") I mean [i]experience[/i]. Abstract knowledge cannot transcend the gap between the created and the uncreated, which means that it has a very limited value.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

the fossil record is clear and unavoidable. creatures died before humanity existed.

even a ridiculous theory (like one I once proposed here on phatmass in my earlier days, and I was then just exploring possibilities) which said that Adam and Eve lived for thousands if not millions of years during the times of dinosaurs and what not in the garden of Eden before they fell, would not account for the fact that we had dinosaurs living and dying before Adam and Eve fell from grace.