The Chastisement Mexico City

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1853236' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:48 PM']IMHO, to say that God is using this disease as a kind of chistisement would be to say that Christ's sacrifice was somehow imperfect.

It also doesn't seem fair to say that God could stop this and since he does not then it must be a punishment. Oh course he COULD stop this. There is not a single suffering or evil in this world that he could not stop. Is hunger a chastisement? Cancer? Step Throat? Perhaps the reason God does not stop it has nothing to do with his punishing us in his wisdon, but rather that He, in his wisdom, is allowing us to expeience him through suffering. These things are not punishments. They are trials... or maybe we can be wise enough to see them as gifts.[/quote]

Very well said. We learn through our suffering and it brings us only closer to Christ. After all, why would Christ bless us with miracles and yet turn around to give us chastisement as well? There is plenty of time for chastisement in Hell. Right now, on this earth, Christ wants to bring more and more souls to Himself. With the help of our prayers, the angels, the saints, and Our Mother, He is constantly flooding every single soul with love and compassion.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1853225' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:38 PM']Aloysius, I completely agree and thank you for your support. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. No amount of modernism will drop that. The Great Chastisement will come to the world, and many will die because of it. This idea that God no longer chastises His people, that this 'idea' is dropped because modern thought is false. God has not dropped it because He is the same today as yesterday, as He will be forever. The Great Chastisement will happen. Lastly devote Catholics should not be accused of being 'raving fundamentalists', and likened to Jerry Falwell, such personal attacks are uncalled for, and uncharitable.[/quote]

What I said was in no way a personal attack. I said it "makes us look like." But if you have a problem, report me.

And if you could elaborate about what this "Great Chastisement" is, that would be great. Is it the Catholic version of the Rapture?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1853251' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:59 PM']What I said was in no way a personal attack. I said it "makes us look like." But if you have a problem, report me.

And if you could elaborate about what this "Great Chastisement" is, that would be great. Is it the Catholic version of the Rapture?[/quote]
The Great Chastisement as discussed in approved Catholic Eschatology will be real, the rapture is not. That is however for another thread.

[Aloysius]

I'm not sure you all understand the meaning of the word "chastisement"... it is very similar to what VoTeckam is talking about with the word "trial" except on a broader scale than just personal experience. as I've been saying again and again, it's individualism that keeps people from understanding... you can only understand it in terms of individual trials but refuse to acknowledge chastisements for the whole of humanity.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853265' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:04 PM']I'm not sure you all understand the meaning of the word "chastisement"... it is very similar to what VoTeckam is talking about with the word "trial"[/quote]

Yeap.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1853251' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:59 PM']What I said was in no way a personal attack. I said it "makes us look like." But if you have a problem, report me.

And if you could elaborate about what this "Great Chastisement" is, that would be great. Is it the Catholic version of the Rapture?[/quote]

That's ok, I was hoping you could apologize, however you refuse and wish to play word games, no need, you said what you said and it was directed to me and or Al.

But as far as I am concerned the matter is over.

[Aloysius]

"chastisement" has the same root as "chastity", it is a means by which God purifies whole nations and the whole of humanity by allowing natural disasters and diseases and plagues which remind the whole people of their own mortalities and call us all to individual repentance AND calls the whole society to repentance of its greatest evils.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853286' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:10 PM']"chastisement" has the same root as "chastity", it is a means by which God purifies whole nations and the whole of humanity by allowing natural disasters and diseases and plagues which remind the whole people of their own mortalities and call us all to individual repentance AND calls the whole society to repentance of its greatest evils.[/quote]


Even using the archaic definition of chastisement I still do not think I am in agreement. To say that God is chastising means that he caused it, not just that he allows it. Which I think is perverse

Edited April 30, 2009 by VoTeckam

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1853246' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:56 PM']He is constantly flooding every single soul with love and compassion.[/quote]


And swine flu

[Hassan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853191' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:07 PM']ALL natural disasters and plagues are types of chastisements. We didn't "drop" anything from the scriptures that speak of them as such time and time again. Perhaps the Egyptians should've just used better hygiene for their first born sons or something.

When I say it's a chastisement, I don't mean individuals are being punished (you know, the firstborn sons of Egypt didn't do anything wrong... perhaps even some of them were just enough to have been saved by Christ in the harrowing of hell). I mean that God is reminding us of our mortality by means of natural disasters and plagues. We pray for protection from these things... perhaps we should stop praying for protection from those things and start just using hygienic soap? Why do we pray from protection from these things? Because all things that happen are God's divine will. Sometimes it's His active will, sometimes it's His passive will; but even when it's His passive will, it can be said to be a chastisement.

This is simply the biblical way of looking at things. If you're all so modern that the Biblical interpretation of disease--ie, a result of original sin--makes us look ridiculous because all disease ever is is pure biology and hygiene, well then fine. I'll stick with the interpretation of meaning and significance in every human event because there is no such thing as random chaos; by interpreting significance in every human event we use everything to pray to God. medievals saw the plague as a chastisement, and it was a type of chastisement... maybe not for anything specific, of course, but all plagues are chastisements for sin in general (edit: which I just saw Seven77 actually said that in the post he linked to, but I also think it is good to reflect on specific sins of societies when large diseases coincide with them). yes, hygiene played a role, but SO DID SIN. It always does, in every natural disaster and every disease and every mortality. Let us use these disasters to remind ourselves of our own mortality, like I said: when God permits diseases to run rampant (and He could easily stop them), it is a way to remind mankind that we are at the mercy of nature, that we are all mortal and will all have to come to answer to Him at some time, and it may be sooner than we expect.[/quote]

I can respect this

[quote]it's individualism that makes people think this is ridiculous. God's not punishing individuals with diseases... like I said, little Tommy with swine flu was not personally punished... but the whole of humanity was reminded by little Tommy that anyone could go to God at any time so everyone must always be prepared.[/quote]


I don't think it's individualism so much as most Christians (and more than just Christians) don't retain a traditional religious point of view.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1853319' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:21 PM']Even using the archaic definition of chastisement I still do not think I am in agreement. To say that God is chastising means that he caused it, not just that he allows it. Which I think is perverse[/quote]

Agreed.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1853348' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:35 PM']Agreed.[/quote]


Is there a moral difference?

[Aloysius]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1853319' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:21 PM']Even using the archaic definition of chastisement I still do not think I am in agreement. To say that God is chastising means that he caused it, not just that he allows it. Which I think is perverse[/quote]
the "archaic" definition is the theological definition.

God causes all things either by His active will or by His passive will (which we might then say He "allows" them to be specific, but biblical language would still use the language of causation even when it is His passive will) and all things have meaning in that way.

do we not, whenever anyone dies, say that God called them to come to Him? every single death is, in some way, because God willed it to be their time to face Him.

again, to me it is individualism which makes it seem as if it's perverse... because it seems like God's coming around killing off individuals at random in order to make a point to society at large. that's a false way of viewing things... for the same reason we cannot say that Egypt's firstborn sons had committed any sin and yet they were taken by God, so too can we say of all individual human beings who are directly affected by Divine chastisement of the whole society.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1852698' date='Apr 29 2009, 08:30 PM']I think it is wrong for us to speculate if this is an act of chastisement from God and Fidei I know you are an atheist. But I hope that was a joke and even if it was intended to be a joke, that was completely out of line. Please, real people are dying here. Fidei that was completely uncalled for.[/quote]
I apologize if I offended, but I don't think that the religious are the only ones allowed to sound harsh in their sentiments. I've been told horrible things about how I will rot in hell and be damned eternally, and if that's not uncharitable and rude, I don't know what is.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853356' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:38 PM']the "archaic" definition is the theological definition.

God causes all things either by His active will or by His passive will (which we might then say He "allows" them to be specific, but biblical language would still use the language of causation even when it is His passive will) and all things have meaning in that way.

do we not, whenever anyone dies, say that God called them to come to Him? every single death is, in some way, because God willed it to be their time to face Him.

again, to me it is individualism which makes it seem as if it's perverse... because it seems like God's coming around killing off individuals at random in order to make a point to society at large. that's a false way of viewing things... for the same reason we cannot say that Egypt's firstborn sons had committed any sin and yet they were taken by God, so too can we say of all individual human beings who are directly affected by Divine chastisement of the whole society.[/quote]


Individualism is not the barrier. Your example of the Egytians was an example of God's active will. I gather that even you will agree that God did not send this swine flu from the heavens for the sole purpose of purification. So then I think it is misleading to credit God for all things done in his passive will. That would be wise so that we don't start threads titled , "God's Chastisement through atomic weapons," or, "God's Chastisement through terrorism." Even though these things are caused through human evils (and the same case can be made for the swine flu) God does of course have the power to stop them but does not.

In short, our arguemnt may be semantical but to call this outbreak a chastisement is misleading to most.

Edited April 30, 2009 by VoTeckam