The Chastisement Mexico City

[Aloysius]

were I a Muslim, I would likely take a similar position... that any disease which overruns a non-Muslim state is a type of chastisement from God by which he warns the dhimmis by reminding them of their mortality that they should stop being unfairly hard-hearted in closing their ears to the prophet Mohammad. that would be a sensible position.

of course, in general, chastisements are meant for the believers not the unbelievers; it is for us to understand and find the significance in the terrible events of natural disasters and plagues. in a Muslim context, I think it's often assumed that the dhimmi people of the book sort of know they're wrong on some level so if I followed their logic I'd see chastisements for the non-Muslims in these types of things, you know, God's reminding them of their mortality so as to strengthen that lingering doubt in their false doctrines which, of course, must certainly be present in the dhimmis

but as a Catholic, I see chastisements primarily aimed at those who believe. God doesn't use plagues to convince people to change their belief in Him, He uses them to convince those who believe to strengthen their resolve in their belief in Him... to examine themselves and realize that they might not have all the time in the world to figure things out... maybe they've gotten indifferent or lax, would they really be prepared to contract swine flu and meet their maker?

chastisements are, in some ways, a type of a blessing in this way. you see, we who believe in God see significance in everything; in so doing we are making everything into a prayer to God. that's the proper context of all this. the interpretted significance of a chastisement is dependent upon the faith of the people; as you have shown, if one has the faith of Mohammadism, one will likely interpret a chastisement through that lens (but hopefully they will also receive the true meanings of what true evils are being chastised... a Muslim might interpret those things which plague Western countries as types of chastisements for sexual immorality and the like, and that would be a good analysis... God might use a plague to chastise whole peoples reminding all who are engaging in immoral and hollow sexual lifestyles though they believe in God and have an inkling that it's wrong that they might not have until 70 or 80 years old to figure that out.

chastisements are primarily a reminder of our mortality. and God will remind us of our mortality for a great many reasons.

[Hassan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1853012' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:41 AM']throw it in my face. i believe what i believe.[/quote]


I am not trying to throw it in your face, I'm sorry for being disrespectful.

I understand discussion about the nature of divine chastisment etc as you all are discussing now. What I don't understand are discussions like the OP began. You all have that it began around the abortion time, Muslims have that it's Swine Flu. Either way you have no viable means of determining if it is divine punishment or not so why argue over it.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1853018' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:50 AM']I am not trying to throw it in your face, I'm sorry for being disrespectful.[/quote]

You're forgiven.

[Aloysius]

that's just the thing, for Christians pretty much every natural disaster and plague is a type of Divine chastisement. when it's a really big deal with really big connections to really big evils, then we should suggest "this is a Divine chastisement for X"

the arguments that arise against it being a Divine chastisement for X usually are based on individualism... because little Tommy got the swine flu and little Tommy didn't have anything to do with X. Yes, little Tommy didn't have anything to do with X and he's not being chastised for X, it's the whole society that's being chastised for X and little Tommy (if he's old enough to think about such things, when I used "little Tommy" as an example I didn't think it through to this point lol) should contemplate the significance of the whole society being chastised by the swine flu... and of course, use the opportunity himself to look inwardly at his own faults.

but the problem that the individualist argument against plagues as divine chastisement has is that we're not saying that those who get it are being chastised specifically; it's both those who get it and those who don't get it that are being chastised because everyone's being scared by it.. the threat of getting it looms over everyone. so if a plague gets released that kills 30% of the population of a place, like the black death, then the whole population has been chastised. those who died from it aren't even necessarily the MOST chastised of the whole bunch, I'd argue that those who survive through it are even more chastised still living on earth after dealing with so much death. but it chastises the survivors and victims alike.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853022' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:58 AM']that's just the thing, for Christians pretty much every natural disaster and plague is a type of Divine chastisement. when it's a really big deal with really big connections to really big evils, then we should suggest "this is a Divine chastisement for X"

the arguments that arise against it being a Divine chastisement for X usually are based on individualism... because little Tommy got the swine flu and little Tommy didn't have anything to do with X. Yes, little Tommy didn't have anything to do with X and he's not being chastised for X, it's the whole society that's being chastised for X and little Tommy (if he's old enough to think about such things, when I used "little Tommy" as an example I didn't think it through to this point lol) should contemplate the significance of the whole society being chastised by the swine flu... and of course, use the opportunity himself to look inwardly at his own faults.

but the problem that the individualist argument against plagues as divine chastisement has is that we're not saying that those who get it are being chastised specifically; it's both those who get it and those who don't get it that are being chastised because everyone's being scared by it.. the threat of getting it looms over everyone. so if a plague gets released that kills 30% of the population of a place, like the black death, then the whole population has been chastised. those who died from it aren't even necessarily the MOST chastised of the whole bunch, I'd argue that those who survive through it are even more chastised still living on earth after dealing with so much death. but it chastises the survivors and victims alike.[/quote]

yeah, what he said!

[Maggyie]

I'm not sure this chastisement stuff is actually official MODERN Catholic theology... sounds more like Jerry Falwell stuff than what I would hear out of the mouth of a Catholic bishop or the Pope. Anybody have a link to the Catechism??? Or is it one of the things we've dropped?

To me especially with illnesses it makes the Church look ridiculous. In the Middle Ages people thought the plague was a chastisement, when in fact it didn't infect people because society was sinful, it spread because they had poor hygiene. To me this kind of stuff can be pretty dangerous, especially the bit about Obama visiting and then the guy he shook hands with getting sick and dying - that is not Catholic thinking, that's magical, superstitious thinking.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1852749' date='Apr 29 2009, 11:20 PM']Are you serious? This is just like the abortionist's family crashing into the graveyard next to the shrine to the unborn...[/quote]

Seriously. Like trying to stretch a Nostradamus prophecy to fit current events.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1853107' date='Apr 30 2009, 10:58 AM']I'm not sure this chastisement stuff is actually official MODERN Catholic theology... sounds more like Jerry Falwell stuff than what I would hear out of the mouth of a Catholic bishop or the Pope. Anybody have a link to the Catechism??? Or is it one of the things we've dropped?

To me especially with illnesses it makes the Church look ridiculous. In the Middle Ages people thought the plague was a chastisement, when in fact it didn't infect people because society was sinful, it spread because they had poor hygiene. To me this kind of stuff can be pretty dangerous, especially the bit about Obama visiting and then the guy he shook hands with getting sick and dying - that is not Catholic thinking, that's magical, superstitious thinking.[/quote]

Agreed, it makes us look like raving fundamentalists on the street corner of a huge city.

[Seven77]

Here is my $.02... God does not punish anyone. These things that are happening are just natural consequences of sin on the part of society at large. It just flows from it. The people dying could be totally innocent.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1852977' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:41 AM']Do you believe that God has, will and can chastise the nations?[/quote]

I don't think he has needed to in a long time because we do such a good job of destroying ourselves these days.

[Seven77]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1853153' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:02 AM']I don't think he has needed to in a long time because we do such a good job of destroying ourselves these days.[/quote]

exactly.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=93477&view=findpost&p=1853151"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t&p=1853151[/url]

[Aloysius]

ALL natural disasters and plagues are types of chastisements. We didn't "drop" anything from the scriptures that speak of them as such time and time again. Perhaps the Egyptians should've just used better hygiene for their first born sons or something.

When I say it's a chastisement, I don't mean individuals are being punished (you know, the firstborn sons of Egypt didn't do anything wrong... perhaps even some of them were just enough to have been saved by Christ in the harrowing of hell). I mean that God is reminding us of our mortality by means of natural disasters and plagues. We pray for protection from these things... perhaps we should stop praying for protection from those things and start just using hygienic soap? Why do we pray from protection from these things? Because all things that happen are God's divine will. Sometimes it's His active will, sometimes it's His passive will; but even when it's His passive will, it can be said to be a chastisement.

This is simply the biblical way of looking at things. If you're all so modern that the Biblical interpretation of disease--ie, a result of original sin--makes us look ridiculous because all disease ever is is pure biology and hygiene, well then fine. I'll stick with the interpretation of meaning and significance in every human event because there is no such thing as random chaos; by interpreting significance in every human event we use everything to pray to God. medievals saw the plague as a chastisement, and it was a type of chastisement... maybe not for anything specific, of course, but all plagues are chastisements for sin in general (edit: which I just saw Seven77 actually said that in the post he linked to, but I also think it is good to reflect on specific sins of societies when large diseases coincide with them). yes, hygiene played a role, but SO DID SIN. It always does, in every natural disaster and every disease and every mortality. Let us use these disasters to remind ourselves of our own mortality, like I said: when God permits diseases to run rampant (and He could easily stop them), it is a way to remind mankind that we are at the mercy of nature, that we are all mortal and will all have to come to answer to Him at some time, and it may be sooner than we expect.

it's individualism that makes people think this is ridiculous. God's not punishing individuals with diseases... like I said, little Tommy with swine flu was not personally punished... but the whole of humanity was reminded by little Tommy that anyone could go to God at any time so everyone must always be prepared.

[KnightofChrist]

Aloysius, I completely agree and thank you for your support. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. No amount of modernism will drop that. The Great Chastisement will come to the world, and many will die because of it. This idea that God no longer chastises His people, that this 'idea' is dropped because modern thought is false. God has not dropped it because He is the same today as yesterday, as He will be forever. The Great Chastisement will happen. Lastly devote Catholics should not be accused of being 'raving fundamentalists', and likened to Jerry Falwell, such personal attacks are uncalled for, and uncharitable.

Edited April 30, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[VoTeckam]

IMHO, to say that God is using this disease as a kind of chistisement would be to say that Christ's sacrifice was somehow imperfect.

It also doesn't seem fair to say that God could stop this and since he does not then it must be a punishment. Oh course he COULD stop this. There is not a single suffering or evil in this world that he could not stop. Is hunger a chastisement? Cancer? Strep Throat? Perhaps the reason God does not stop it has nothing to do with his punishing us in his wisdon, but rather that He, in his wisdom, is allowing us to expeience him through suffering. These things are not punishments. They are trials... or maybe we can be wise enough to see them as gifts.

Edited for spelling... but I probably still missed some.

Edited April 30, 2009 by VoTeckam

[Maggyie]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1853225' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:38 PM']Aloysius, I completely agree and thank you for your support. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. No amount of modernism will drop that. The Great Chastisement will come to the world, and many will die because of it. This idea that God no longer chastises His people, that this 'idea' is drop in modern thought is false. The Great Chastisement will happen. Lastly devote Catholics should not be accused of being 'raving fundamentalists', and likened to Jerry Falwell, such personal attacks are uncalled for, and uncharitable.[/quote]


What is the "Great Chastisement"? Are you refering to a private revelation, or to the Apocolypse? The latter will definitely happen, but as for private revelations, I've had enough of that stuff to last me a lifetime

Is it [b]really [/b]theological modernism to doubt that God chastises nations in the exact same way He did in the Old Testament? Again can someone hook me up with the relevant portion of the Catechism?

Edited April 30, 2009 by Maggie